Moral Objection = WTF.

[Martian Princess]

SlaveToKarma

Okay... uh... sorry if I offend anyone. sweatdrop

Personally, I believe this is a mute point. It doesn't really need attentive care. DOctors are forced by law and their oath to do all that is nessesery to preserve or prolong life. Anything else is not an emergency and is not their priority. Abortions and morning after pills are not an emergency. And since they are not an emergency, if one doctor denies it, you are alloud to find another doctor and get their opinion. If you go to court saying how you were denied by this doctor for an abortion, the Judge will tell you to get a second opinion.

Yes this is true. Both my parents have both worked in a medical field for over 20 years. They have explained this to me. 3nodding

My mother has also worked in the medical field for over 20 years, and I strongly disagree. The morning after pill does count as an emergency. The longer you wait to take it, the less effective it becomes, and if you miss the window of opportunity you will likely be pregnant and you face the prospect of an unwanted child or a much more expensive abortion.

Also, not everyone lives in a city where the option to go to another doctor or pharmacy exists. Honest.

Besides, many of the drugs that pharmacists deny women are not just used for birth control, they can be used to control excessively heavy periods and other more serious conditions relating to the menstrual cycle.

On another note: What if a so called "scientologist" became a pharmacist and then proceeded to deny people their anti-depression and anti-psychotic medicine because they believed these things were "wrong," and that the only "correct" way to help someone with a mental illness is through vitamins and exercise? Do you think we would be quite as sympathetic to them when they were fired?  

[Martian Princess]

I notice that the poll for this thread asks about "who deserves special right" and then lists gay and lesbian couples in relation to the right to marry and adopt. I'd just like to throw the idea out that that would be equal rights, not special rights.  

[[ Z a d i i e ]]

Martian Princess

I notice that the poll for this thread asks about "who deserves special right" and then lists gay and lesbian couples in relation to the right to marry and adopt. I'd just like to throw the idea out that that would be equal rights, not special rights.

I know. I just put it in because many people think giving lesbian women and gay men the right to everything heterosexual couples already can legally get is "special" while firing doctors and pharmacists who refuse to give treatment / do their jobs is "discrimination" and they are being denied their "rights". Hope that made sense, I should be in bed.  

[Martian Princess]

Cyanide Kitten

Martian Princess

I notice that the poll for this thread asks about "who deserves special right" and then lists gay and lesbian couples in relation to the right to marry and adopt. I'd just like to throw the idea out that that would be equal rights, not special rights.

I know. I just put it in because many people think giving lesbian women and gay men the right to everything heterosexual couples already can legally get is "special" while firing doctors and pharmacists who refuse to give treatment / do their jobs is "discrimination" and they are being denied their "rights". Hope that made sense, I should be in bed.

Hmm. I would really like to see someone make this argument, that giving someone the same rights that everyone else has is "special" rights. The only "special" rights complaints I know about in relation to Gays is hate crimes and anti-discrimination laws that would state that, given the choice between two equally qualified candidates, the minority must be the one hired.

However, I do not wish to derail your thread on religion & medicine, so I'll let it alone now!  

[KaguraOfTheWind]

I think the idea of equal and special rights does apply here. Often people who want equal rights often play they "insert cause here" card. Hired somebody for a job without looking at any black people, play the race card. There are some places that are required to look at so many black canadites before hiring someone. I remember this happening in the NFL because a team didn't look at anybody black for a head coach, even though the team knew who they wanted! That's special rights. Person gets fired, they believe it's because they're gay, or a minority, or they look different. There are times when they go to court and get that job back. That's special rights.

These people will march to say they want to be equal yet doing so they are saying they are special. You can't have both. Those asking to be equal are often asking for exceptions in old laws, thus asking for special rights.

Adoption and artificial insemination are tradionally for couples that are not able to have children normally usually due to problems with one of the partners. Both members of a homosexual couple are generally able to have children in the usual fashion, thus you could easily argue that they have no need for it. The problem lies only in missing parts. Medically speaking their is no reason need for artificial insemination and therefore they could be denied for medical reasons. Adoption is different of course.  

[Martian Princess]

KaguraOfTheWind

I think the idea of equal and special rights does apply here. Often people who want equal rights often play they "insert cause here" card. Hired somebody for a job without looking at any black people, play the race card. There are some places that are required to look at so many black canadites before hiring someone. I remember this happening in the NFL because a team didn't look at anybody black for a head coach, even though the team knew who they wanted! That's special rights. Person gets fired, they believe it's because they're gay, or a minority, or they look different. There are times when they go to court and get that job back. That's special rights.

These people will march to say they want to be equal yet doing so they are saying they are special. You can't have both. Those asking to be equal are often asking for exceptions in old laws, thus asking for special rights.

Adoption and artificial insemination are tradionally for couples that are not able to have children normally usually due to problems with one of the partners. Both members of a homosexual couple are generally able to have children in the usual fashion, thus you could easily argue that they have no need for it. The problem lies only in missing parts. Medically speaking their is no reason need for artificial insemination and therefore they could be denied for medical reasons. Adoption is different of course.

Yes, in my previous post I did name affirmative action laws that could arguably be special rights. But I was speaking about the poll, which specifically names adoption and marriage - and you made no mention of either as a special right. I think we are more or less in agreement, although I would argue with your stance on artificial insemination. However, I won't do it in this thread, because it's off topic.  

[KaguraOfTheWind]

It's not a stance, just playing devil's advocate.  

[SlaveToKarma]

Martian Princess

SlaveToKarma

Okay... uh... sorry if I offend anyone. sweatdrop

Personally, I believe this is a mute point. It doesn't really need attentive care. DOctors are forced by law and their oath to do all that is nessesery to preserve or prolong life. Anything else is not an emergency and is not their priority. Abortions and morning after pills are not an emergency. And since they are not an emergency, if one doctor denies it, you are alloud to find another doctor and get their opinion. If you go to court saying how you were denied by this doctor for an abortion, the Judge will tell you to get a second opinion.

Yes this is true. Both my parents have both worked in a medical field for over 20 years. They have explained this to me. 3nodding

My mother has also worked in the medical field for over 20 years, and I strongly disagree. The morning after pill does count as an emergency. The longer you wait to take it, the less effective it becomes, and if you miss the window of opportunity you will likely be pregnant and you face the prospect of an unwanted child or a much more expensive abortion.

Also, not everyone lives in a city where the option to go to another doctor or pharmacy exists. Honest.

Besides, many of the drugs that pharmacists deny women are not just used for birth control, they can be used to control excessively heavy periods and other more serious conditions relating to the menstrual cycle.

On another note: What if a so called "scientologist" became a pharmacist and then proceeded to deny people their anti-depression and anti-psychotic medicine because they believed these things were "wrong," and that the only "correct" way to help someone with a mental illness is through vitamins and exercise? Do you think we would be quite as sympathetic to them when they were fired?

morning pill is not an emergency! It is NOT life threatening! And it's the womans fault for deciding to have sex the night before. (Don't even mention rape victims. WHen a woman is raped hormones that are needed to get pregnant are shut down.)Whatever happened to waiting for marrage?ANd how can you say "unwanted child"? You are so sick for muttering those words. And the abortion, it's the mothers fault for not planning. SO they should get a job and find shelter, and learn to take resposibility. And why WOULD a scientologist want to become a pharmacist when they stand for everything they are against. (Which is giving out medicine) Why anyone would want to destroy the life of a child is beyond me.  

[[ Z a d i i e ]]

SlaveToKarma

morning pill is not an emergency! It is NOT life threatening! And it's the womans fault for deciding to have sex the night before. (Don't even mention rape victims. WHen a woman is raped hormones that are needed to get pregnant are shut down.)Whatever happened to waiting for marrage?ANd how can you say "unwanted child"? You are so sick for muttering those words. And the abortion, it's the mothers fault for not planning. SO they should get a job and find shelter, and learn to take resposibility. And why WOULD a scientologist want to become a pharmacist when they stand for everything they are against. (Which is giving out medicine) Why anyone would want to destroy the life of a child is beyond me.

When a woman is raped hormones that are needed to get pregnant are "shut down"? Never heard that before - scientific evidence or proof, please? RAINN (Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network) estimate in 2002 that there were up to 4,315 pregnancies as a result of rape.

Waiting for marriage isn't an option for everyone - gay men and lesbian women are denied the right to marry in the U.S. currently and there are believe it or not, people who do not wish to get married or have children.

Abortion is the mother's fault for not planning? Contraception fails. Condoms break. Rape happens. "Learn to take responsibility"? Please, when our adoption system is ******** and overrun and many people refuse to adopt babies who have health problems or deformities or are mixed race - an abortion may be the "responsible" thing to do.

Almost 60% of abortions occur during the first nine weeks of pregnancy - when the "child" isn't even an inch long. Please give me some good statistics or at least good reasoning.  

[Aestuosa]

Cyanide Kitten

If I worked at KFC but believed their treatment of animals is despicable so I refuse to serve or prepare food - but then also refuse to take orders from the drive through window and throw them out - should I be fired or should I be able to keep my job?

that's quite a false analogy. Doctors do more than just abortions and give out "the pill", etc. At KFC their whole schpeal is chicken. If you don't want to sell chicken don't work at KFC. If a doctor doesn't want to do an abortion, they'll work where that won't be an issue.

Cyanide Kitten

It just doesn't make a lick of sense. You aren't being "discriminated" against because you are Catholic / Christian / Jewish / Hindu / Muslim / etc - you're being "discriminated" against because you're refusing to do your job.

I don't understand who "You" is. Is it the patient who isn't getting the treatment they need/want. Or the doctor? I don't think the doctors are being discriminated against. I could be wrong, but that doesn't make sense to me if they are.

Cyanide Kitten

A doctor refuses to perform sterilization procedures.

Do you mean "sterilizing" as in removing testicles or tieing tubes? Or do you mean cleaning procedures?

I do agree that the things you mentioned are messed up. Like the one about the gynocologist. Then the doctor that wouldn't give the single mom a physical. Yah, that's not right, if the reasons you imply are the reasons of the doctor. I also completely agree that it's disgusting and hypocritical to impose your believes on others.

I would still like to know where you heard about all these different people that were denied fair treatment by doctors. I think that there could be other logical reasons that a gay woman could be refused artificial insemination other than her sexual preferences (the reason I think you are trying to imply).  

[[ Z a d i i e ]]

Aestuosa

I don't understand who "You" is. Is it the patient who isn't getting the treatment they need/want. Or the doctor? I don't think the doctors are being discriminated against. I could be wrong, but that doesn't make sense to me if they are.

You is directed towards the doctors refusing to treat patients because of their religious beliefs.

Quote:

Do you mean "sterilizing" as in removing testicles or tieing tubes? Or do you mean cleaning procedures?

Sterilizing as in the first, fertility.

Quote:

I do agree that the things you mentioned are messed up. Like the one about the gynocologist. Then the doctor that wouldn't give the single mom a physical. Yah, that's not right, if the reasons you imply are the reasons of the doctor. I also completely agree that it's disgusting and hypocritical to impose your believes on others.

I would still like to know where you heard about all these different people that were denied fair treatment by doctors. I think that there could be other logical reasons that a gay woman could be refused artificial insemination other than her sexual preferences (the reason I think you are trying to imply).

These were all in an article recently published in the Washington Post - here is a link. There is a similar article here from the other point of view, by the same author.  

[Martian Princess]

SlaveToKarma

Martian Princess

SlaveToKarma

Okay... uh... sorry if I offend anyone. sweatdrop

Personally, I believe this is a mute point. It doesn't really need attentive care. DOctors are forced by law and their oath to do all that is nessesery to preserve or prolong life. Anything else is not an emergency and is not their priority. Abortions and morning after pills are not an emergency. And since they are not an emergency, if one doctor denies it, you are alloud to find another doctor and get their opinion. If you go to court saying how you were denied by this doctor for an abortion, the Judge will tell you to get a second opinion.

Yes this is true. Both my parents have both worked in a medical field for over 20 years. They have explained this to me. 3nodding

My mother has also worked in the medical field for over 20 years, and I strongly disagree. The morning after pill does count as an emergency. The longer you wait to take it, the less effective it becomes, and if you miss the window of opportunity you will likely be pregnant and you face the prospect of an unwanted child or a much more expensive abortion.

Also, not everyone lives in a city where the option to go to another doctor or pharmacy exists. Honest.

Besides, many of the drugs that pharmacists deny women are not just used for birth control, they can be used to control excessively heavy periods and other more serious conditions relating to the menstrual cycle.

On another note: What if a so called "scientologist" became a pharmacist and then proceeded to deny people their anti-depression and anti-psychotic medicine because they believed these things were "wrong," and that the only "correct" way to help someone with a mental illness is through vitamins and exercise? Do you think we would be quite as sympathetic to them when they were fired?

morning pill is not an emergency! It is NOT life threatening! And it's the womans fault for deciding to have sex the night before. (Don't even mention rape victims. WHen a woman is raped hormones that are needed to get pregnant are shut down.)Whatever happened to waiting for marrage?ANd how can you say "unwanted child"? You are so sick for muttering those words. And the abortion, it's the mothers fault for not planning. SO they should get a job and find shelter, and learn to take resposibility. And why WOULD a scientologist want to become a pharmacist when they stand for everything they are against. (Which is giving out medicine) Why anyone would want to destroy the life of a child is beyond me.

There are emergencies that are not life threatening. The morning after pill is one of them, for the reasons I explained in my above post. There is a very limited window of effectiveness and it needs to be administered ASAP. Saying that it is the "woman's fault" is just plain naive and not at all productive. Accidents happen even with the most responsible people. Birth control pills and condoms fail.

Waiting for marriage isn't really the issue here -- It isn't just single women that get abortions! There are plenty of women who already have families and can not support or do not want another child. Yes, do not want. Just because you give birth to a child does not necessarily mean that you want it. Not every child is wanted by its parents. This is the truth - voicing the truth makes me realistic, not "sick." Please keep your insults to yourself.

I have known people who have been left pregnant by rape. It is an untruth of astronomical proportions to claim that it is not possible. It happens every day all across the US.

Again, it is not the mother's fault for "not planning." Abortion is not just for panicking pregnant teenagers. And how would a single, unskilled mother go about "finding shelter and getting a job" if they have a nursing infant? Someone who is unskilled has minimum wage jobs available to them primarily and will be unable to afford child care.

My understanding of scientology was that they had no problem with antibiotics but frowned on psychotropic drugs. This may be an uninformed view and if that is so, I withdraw it. All of my above points still stand.

Nobody wants to destroy the life of a child. I don't see a blastocyst or an embryo as a child. I see it as a potential child, a clump of cells that might one day be a child, but is not yet. You might say that the destruction of a potential being is just as bad. But every time a woman has her period, she flushes an egg out of her body. That egg was also a potential child that will now never be realized, and nobody can rationally suggest that that is a moral failing, or a murder.  

[Kazuma San]

man you can love anyone or anything . and i still be your friend. just dont do that in front of me >.<  

[CabooseRIF]

i don't know, it's a touchy subject. i mean obviously some of those refusals are wrong, but even so....i don't know.