A quote that applies to all of us here, i hope.......

[Calypsophia]

azrael the reaper

Calypsophia

I am Yuu-chan

Calypsophia

I am Yuu-chan

told you i would look like one -points above-

but like i said, i was completely indifferent about your opinion at the point that i didnt even read it, and like i said earlier, there is no way that indifference can help to tolerate someone, i cant tolerate you if i dont know or dont care about your opinion, and to care or know your opinion i cant be indifferent about it smile

you need to know about something to know whether you're indifferent to it or not. once you've heard of the issue, then you can decide to whether you care enough to have an opinion or not, and if you dont, then you can say you're indifferent. (yeah, I'm just being argumentative at this point) cool

you know that from this point on we could be saying the same thing over and over again with different words rite?

ok then lets make it definitive, can you be indifferent about something with out know about it? and, can you tolerate something with out knowing about it?

I say, no on both counts.

okay, yall just agree to disagree.......... yuu, if you do not have an opinion, then please do not post that you have no opinion. we are here to discuss this among ppl who wish to express their opinion.........and caly, as i said above, just agree to disagree.............

aww, I have no problems agreeing to disagree. I do it all the time in my everyday life. the issue comes along when someone else doesnt like that I disagree with them. but Yuu-Chan isnt like that. we seem to get along pretty well, so no worries dude smile  

[notmatt18]

i see what you point is but to answer your question no im not a threat to socity for thinking, thinking is a mental act in witch you and no one eles can discuss a situation before seeking advice  

[azrael the reaper_95210]

notmatt18

I see what your point is but to answer your question no im not a threat to society for thinking, thinking is a mental act in which you and no one else can discuss a situation before seeking advice

But, because you choose to think, or discuss the situation with yourself, rather than to just blindly follow the rules society sets down for you,

( examples being: peer pressure, "etiquette", governmental laws)

you are threatening the very fabric by which a group can be considered a society.

By following the "rules", we are a society.

But by thinking for ourselves, we truly become individuals.  

[jambare]

Calypsophia

sometimes I wonder if society itself isnt a threat to the individual.....

I agree with you on that one...society sometimes sets impossible standards and expectations and that can be detrimental to ones sanity....  

[Walking Blind]

sorry for just jumping into the conversation but in my opinon society sucks and dosnt care about what happens to a single indivigual. anything that gose against society though is a firend of mine so thinking for my self would make me a threat and i realy like the sound of that  

[falling_to_fly]

Society thinks, but society doesn't want anyone else to think. (namely everyone thinks and prefer it when they're the only one doing so.)  

[Master Strategist Kess]

It bothers me a little that in this discussion we've minimally brought in those before us of great brilliance who have faced these situations. Kojima, you hate society for the sake of hating society, and it seems you would hate society no matter the standards, but this would be a faulty idea. If you have one in mind, that's much better, but this is a global website, and you could really be from anywhere sweatdrop

However, playing more keenly upon this, I believe the society with issues needs addressing. Anarchy is never the answer, as Jefferson or Hamilton stated, "If men were angels, we would need no government." (Sorry, I think it's Jefferson, but now that I'm writing it out, not sure)

Hobbes also stated that man needed someone to rule them. Without a ruler, we aimlessly go about without goals, because let's face it, most of society can't think. Hobbes says more strictly that society needs an alpha who can lead, and the society will conform to the alpha's ideals. I believe most of us posting in this thread can be alphas, but through political apathy we will likely sit upon the sidelines and debate how bad things are instead of actively getting involved. I personally am becoming a high school teacher, which I'll talk about more later on.

I don't think this is something specific to America, but I think America suffers from it more acutely than most (as James Baldwin states, and I greatly agree, "...we [Americans] have a very deep-seated distrust of real intellectual effort (probably because we suspect that it will destroy, as I hope it does, that myth of America to which we cling so desperately)."). Now I think the biggest problem is we must have something in mind. People complain up and down that Bush did not have an exit plan, but here we are saying the society needs to fall, without describing what a society should be like. I don't think our founding fathers (to those of you who are American) set us up with such a basis of philosophers, so that we could squabble it on simply asking how to destroy our society; we must also think upon how to lift up a new society in its place, or we are doing nothing.

Jefferson, as well as the Chinese government and many others, states that there are really three ways to go about reforming the government. At first you should make private grievances--you write a letter to your statesmen about the problems that exist and how he could go about fixing it, along with how you could aid in the fixing of the problems. Remember, without constructive criticism we are only contributing to the problem.

The second way to go about this is through public forum--we go on TV and discuss what it is we want changed and how. Finally, rebellion. But Jefferson stresses the fact that we must go through the first two stages before we can do the third stage, and he stated this during Shays' Rebellion, when he was in France for their revolution. Much easier to say such things about your government when there's an ocean between you. razz In short, before you go about simply claiming what is sucks, please think about what would be better.

I just deleted my entire paragraph on Seneca and Rome. Well, time to rewrite it. Rome, during its heyday, was much in the same boat as America right now. Materialism was strong, and honestly always had been with Rome since they didn't care for religion, copied the Greeks, and proclaimed Caesar divine for the sake of pacifying the naysayers. However, they had no moral guidelines to keep people in line, which Seneca bashes when writing to his mother, saying she maintained a great many excellent morals. Also, women were materialistic in the sense they would cake on make-up to look attractive for others, and they would get abortions to keep their figure. No one was real, everyone wore ruses, and abortion kills a population. By training our kids that abortion is okay, we essentially kill our future generations. Germany and Spain are already seeing declines in their populations, and America would be if not for immigration. This is a combination of amorous values and abortion, which now might look like a nifty way to control population, but by passing it down as we are, it will not leave our society until the society falls, as did Rome.

Also, on the fact of teachers brainwashing their students into thinking what the teacher wants, this has been a time honored tradition of "brainwashing" students. I'm becoming a teacher, and I will be trying to instill into them my values, much in the same way Socrates instilled his values into Plato, who passed them on to Aristotle, who then passed it on to Alexander. We, teachers, are not trying to brainwash our students, but we are trying to give them what we consider the best foundation of learning. Personally, I'm more in the school of Socratic questioning, and so I will "brainwash" my students to learn through questioning, experiencing, and manipulating that which is around them.

Politically I'm moderate, so I will likely bring that into my thinking. I'm a very relaxed individual politically, and I really couldn't care less what the government does, until they start screwing with my freedoms, like the idea of national health care where they will tax me an extra 15% so the government can tell me whether or not I seem sick enough to get treatment, and the idea that video games need to be regulated by the government instead of the ESRB which does not have power because Senate has not given them power like they had the movie rating group.

The major flaw in society is materialism. Benjamin Franklin and Seneca (I'm sure others have stated this as well, of whom I have not yet read) state that they could live off of very little. Seneca, when writing to his mother on the perks of exile, told her that man could live on very little, and so he would be okay without his past luxuries, which he had very few of anyway. Franklin stated that in his youth he was brought up to eat anything, and so while he was 17 to 18 and very poor on his travels, he didn't care what was put in front of him, so long as he could have food in his stomach. It didn't even have to be warm. I personally can live on very little, and I think if the society learned more about living on meager means, we would be better off as a whole as we would not expect so much. I, being a teacher, will not make much money, but I will find pleasure in that which I do. I will find pleasure in living in a small apartment with my simple laptop, very cheap and simple food, my small library (which really is my largest vice aside from women), and perhaps an Xbox360, which would be enjoyable if I could afford it. I do not need a several thousand dollar TV, but can suffice with my trusted 20 incher which has gotten me through the past six years. But society always says we need a little more, and I think this greatly drags us down as a whole.

So to all of this I must say we need to do something if we've the time to sit around and do nothing but complain to each other. We must let the government know what's wrong if we want to complain. We must also understand in part we are a cog in the machine. The government and society can't function without people understanding their duty to the people, as the Greeks and Romans emphasized, but the Greeks also emphasized there should be a balance between individual and state obligations, which I believe was the better way to go about it. Obviously they had issues balancing that, as the states usurped any sort of central government and weakened Greece significantly, but the idea was there!

Continuing the thought that began that all, we need to get up and do something if we're really upset about it. I'm going to teach, and hopefully reveal a better way to my students than what's out there. Hopefully my classroom will be a bastion against conformity for the sake of conformity. I mean, let's face it, we're weak in will that we conform, when we have no one willing to speak out now. In the past, even 200 years ago, people died for speaking out against their government, and now that we freely have the ability, we really don't use it except to say the government sucks. Maybe that's the difference--because our life is not on the line, we do not fully make use of our ability to criticize, and we stop short at simply mocking what is there instead of offering advice on how to fix it. So, with that, and with those who made it this far, don't just preach anarchy and destruction of what is, but exalt ideas of thought and what could be.  

[Walking Blind]

wow..................i mean just wow........................so much went through my head................... but i get what your saying (and yes i read it all) the reason i say society sucks is because they wouldnt care to listen to a kid like me. what ever i do say gose waisted because i believe that they could care less. yeah i want to say that they can do a better job with helth care because believe me i know many people who have suffered because the government dosent look at thoughs who cant afford full insurance. I want to say that they could make our comunity better by putting in more parks. Thanks though for telling me all that i offten just say stuff in general. Id just love to help fix the problems instead of complain but at this point thats all i can do. when a congress man reads a letter from a 13 year old they laugh because they think that we know nothing. the only thing different is that we see things in a different way. Yeah we might not understand everything but were not stupid. im still sorry to say this even though the troble you went through to explain it too me , i still hate society because its not fair to thoughs who work hard and is easy for others who dont do anything  

[Master Strategist Kess]

*grins* You're 13. I'm impressed you digested what I said that well. There was a guy in Rome who spoke up for what he believed in. His friends listened, but the local magistrate carted him off to be executed. The guy said to his friends he was about to find out the truth about the theories on a spirit, instead of fretting that he was about to die. What he tried to do was to no success, but he tried. If you believe in it, who cares that you're 13, go for it. I'm becoming a teacher, my job's to listen to you guys wink It's not much, but it's someone. And though teachers may seem like cruel overlords, there are quite a few who would love to help a developing mind find the right questions. Finding the answers is more your responsibility x.x  

[Walking Blind]

Master Strategist Kess

*grins* You're 13. I'm impressed you digested what I said that well. There was a guy in Rome who spoke up for what he believed in. His friends listened, but the local magistrate carted him off to be executed. The guy said to his friends he was about to find out the truth about the theories on a spirit, instead of fretting that he was about to die. What he tried to do was to no success, but he tried. If you believe in it, who cares that you're 13, go for it. I'm becoming a teacher, my job's to listen to you guys wink It's not much, but it's someone. And though teachers may seem like cruel overlords, there are quite a few who would love to help a developing mind find the right questions. Finding the answers is more your responsibility x.x

yeah i have this one teacher who realy makes me think. even though he can sometimes seem mean and harsh he realy dose care. some people hate him because he never gives straight answers and always questioning us and what we say. i snap back at them and tell them that at least he's trying and pays attention unlike other teachers.  

[azrael the reaper_95210]

Kojima_8802

wow..................i mean just wow........................so much went through my head................... but i get what your saying (and yes i read it all) the reason i say society sucks is because they wouldnt care to listen to a kid like me. what ever i do say gose waisted because i believe that they could care less. yeah i want to say that they can do a better job with helth care because believe me i know many people who have suffered because the government dosent look at thoughs who cant afford full insurance. I want to say that they could make our comunity better by putting in more parks. Thanks though for telling me all that i offten just say stuff in general. Id just love to help fix the problems instead of complain but at this point thats all i can do. when a congress man reads a letter from a 13 year old they laugh because they think that we know nothing. the only thing different is that we see things in a different way. Yeah we might not understand everything but were not stupid. im still sorry to say this even though the troble you went through to explain it too me , i still hate society because its not fair to thoughs who work hard and is easy for others who dont do anything

I'm afraid you are correct. The government does not listen to the common people, but rather, the rich SOBs who fund their campaigns and bribe the hell out of them. and then to make matters worse, not even the common people listen to teens and kids because they assume that "they are just some dumb kids." and then when you get mad, they blame it on "hormones". It's nothing to do with hormones!!!!! the only difference between the average teen and the average adult in terms of being listened to is that adults can vote. (sure they may not always be counted... ehem.. bush......)

Master Strategist Kess

*grins* You're 13. I'm impressed you digested what I said that well.

so are you saying that because this person is young, that they are incapable of understanding?

Master Strategist Kess

*grins* You're 13. I'm impressed you digested what I said that well. There was a guy in Rome who spoke up for what he believed in. His friends listened, but the local magistrate carted him off to be executed. The guy said to his friends he was about to find out the truth about the theories on a spirit, instead of fretting that he was about to die. What he tried to do was to no success, but he tried. If you believe in it, who cares that you're 13, go for it. I'm becoming a teacher, my job's to listen to you guys wink It's not much, but it's someone. And though teachers may seem like cruel overlords, there are quite a few who would love to help a developing mind find the right questions. Finding the answers is more your responsibility x.x

yes, there are teachers whop are not the overlords. unfortunatly that's, maybe, one teacher in an entire school. just like there is usually one or two who take the other extreme. hopefully you will not allow yourself to be corrupted. always remember, kids know more than you might think. don't ever think you are better than them, just because you happen to be enough older than them to have gotten a teaching degree. you are there to teach them, not to rule over them. And yes, I do know teachers who are already under that assuption before they ever set foot into a classroom to teach.  

[Decrepit Bunny Rabbit]

i certainly believe in what you're saying as i have seen many people yelled at and broken down just because they speak their mind
my line of work sucks  

[Card_King1]

In a society its seems sometimes that the only people who can do anything are the people who just try to force whatever they believe. If your young on in the minority then sometimes it seems that even if you know the right thing you just get ignored or shut down. I know 5 Year olds who have a better understanding of Christianity than the majority of adults. 5 Year olds!!!. but will anybody ever learn anything from them? Society is influenced by the powerful. Whether that be the rich or the majority. Sunday school kids have are better at following Christ that the bible school majors. But who has the influence?  

[azrael the reaper_95210]

Card_King1

In a society its seems sometimes that the only people who can do anything are the people who just try to force whatever they believe. If your young on in the minority then sometimes it seems that even if you know the right thing you just get ignored or shut down. I know 5 Year olds who have a better understanding of Christianity than the majority of adults. 5 Year olds!!!. but will anybody ever learn anything from them? Society is influenced by the powerful. Whether that be the rich or the majority. Sunday school kids have are better at following Christ that the bible school majors. But who has the influence?

children are not yet corrupted by the world around them.  

[Andromeda Zreng]

azrael the reaper

Card_King1

In a society its seems sometimes that the only people who can do anything are the people who just try to force whatever they believe. If your young on in the minority then sometimes it seems that even if you know the right thing you just get ignored or shut down. I know 5 Year olds who have a better understanding of Christianity than the majority of adults. 5 Year olds!!!. but will anybody ever learn anything from them? Society is influenced by the powerful. Whether that be the rich or the majority. Sunday school kids have are better at following Christ that the bible school majors. But who has the influence?

Children's minds are purer (most of them), and they will believe anything you tell them if you're being honest (or if they think you are). Society is influenced by the powerful for a reason. God gave the powerful authority because if there was no authority, we would all have been dead a LONG time ago. Nowadays, though, our society's leaders are becoming more and more corrupted, and they abuse their power. Authority was given to leaders for them to make decisions for the good of the people. Do you really believe that a five-year-old has the experience to understand what the good of the people is?