Well I was thinking that info on the Darkness might be contained on the Demon tablet if Demons came from it and maybe he was hoping/betting on the Winchesters releasing it. As a result he took it to make sure they would release it on the off chance they had another prophet get a look at it or something like that. That's a good speculation you came up with about the Book of the Damned having info about it too.
As for Castiel being weaker than previously even though he didn't fall like the other angels, I think it's simply because he only recovered the small amount that remained therefore only reobtained an equally proportionate amount of his angelic mojo.
Metatron made sure that no other prophets would be activated after Kevin was killed because he didn't want another threat coming from that "department". So, the only people who will be able to read the Demon tablet (and any other tablets that might still exist) are those who know how to read Enochian - angels and older demons (i.e. Crowley).
There seemed to already be quite a bit of information on the Demon tablet about constructing a weapon against them, how to see hellhounds, and sealing the gates of Hell via three trials. So, I doubt there will be any information specifically about the Darkness on it. There might be a tablet just about the Darkness because it is considered the Big Bad.
All of Castiel's grace - aside from what Metatron used to expel the angels from heaven (and whatever else he may have done that required angel grace) - existed in the vial. So, as a result, Castiel won't be as strong because he's only got a portion of his angel mojo remaining.
Actually the Word of God is not transcribed in Enochian. According to Supernatural Wiki, "It is written either in an ancient language or one not taught to angels, and only the prophet linked to it can read it. However it is not as straight forward as simply reading, and seems more akin to knowing how to translate it." The only reason Crowley was able to read info from the Angel Tablet was because Kevin translated it into a dead language that Crowley could read first and Crowley read the translation. As for the no more prophets thing maybe Metatron isn't the only one with the knowledge of how to "flip the Prophet switch". He is highly intelligent and has been known to plan ahead for any potential contingency.
Yeah you are probably right about there being a separate tablet about the Darkness. You also make a great point about how quite a bit of info has been revealed from Kevin's translations of the Demon tablet, but I don't think it has been completely translated either. If it had been fully translated it wouldn't make much sense for Metatron to have wanted it so badly. There must be something transcribed on it that Metatron wants kept undiscovered.
And what you just said about Castiel's current strength was pretty much a reworded version of what I said.
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:10 pm
Kor Saiyajinkami
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
Well I was thinking that info on the Darkness might be contained on the Demon tablet if Demons came from it and maybe he was hoping/betting on the Winchesters releasing it. As a result he took it to make sure they would release it on the off chance they had another prophet get a look at it or something like that. That's a good speculation you came up with about the Book of the Damned having info about it too.
As for Castiel being weaker than previously even though he didn't fall like the other angels, I think it's simply because he only recovered the small amount that remained therefore only reobtained an equally proportionate amount of his angelic mojo.
Metatron made sure that no other prophets would be activated after Kevin was killed because he didn't want another threat coming from that "department". So, the only people who will be able to read the Demon tablet (and any other tablets that might still exist) are those who know how to read Enochian - angels and older demons (i.e. Crowley).
There seemed to already be quite a bit of information on the Demon tablet about constructing a weapon against them, how to see hellhounds, and sealing the gates of Hell via three trials. So, I doubt there will be any information specifically about the Darkness on it. There might be a tablet just about the Darkness because it is considered the Big Bad.
All of Castiel's grace - aside from what Metatron used to expel the angels from heaven (and whatever else he may have done that required angel grace) - existed in the vial. So, as a result, Castiel won't be as strong because he's only got a portion of his angel mojo remaining.
Actually the Word of God is not transcribed in Enochian. According to Supernatural Wiki, "It is written either in an ancient language or one not taught to angels, and only the prophet linked to it can read it. However it is not as straight forward as simply reading, and seems more akin to knowing how to translate it." The only reason Crowley was able to read info from the Angel Tablet was because Kevin translated it into a dead language that Crowley could read first and Crowley read the translation. As for the no more prophets thing maybe Metatron isn't the only one with the knowledge of how to "flip the Prophet switch". He is highly intelligent and has been known to plan ahead for any potential contingency.
Yeah you are probably right about there being a separate tablet about the Darkness. You also make a great point about how quite a bit of info has been revealed from Kevin's translations of the Demon tablet, but I don't think it has been completely translated either. If it had been fully translated it wouldn't make much sense for Metatron to have wanted it so badly. There must be something transcribed on it that Metatron wants kept undiscovered.
And what you just said about Castiel's current strength was pretty much a reworded version of what I said.
My bad about the language. At least I was in the right direction though... that only certain people will be able to read it.
Metatron left a lot of personal sidenotes on the tablets. So, he might want the tablet to make sure he has whatever he wrote down.
Oh... I guess the way I read your response earlier, I thought you were saying that only a portion of Castiel's grace was in the vial and the remaining existed somewhere else. Now that I reread it, I don't know why I thought you were saying that. sweatdrop
Well I was thinking that info on the Darkness might be contained on the Demon tablet if Demons came from it and maybe he was hoping/betting on the Winchesters releasing it. As a result he took it to make sure they would release it on the off chance they had another prophet get a look at it or something like that. That's a good speculation you came up with about the Book of the Damned having info about it too.
As for Castiel being weaker than previously even though he didn't fall like the other angels, I think it's simply because he only recovered the small amount that remained therefore only reobtained an equally proportionate amount of his angelic mojo.
Metatron made sure that no other prophets would be activated after Kevin was killed because he didn't want another threat coming from that "department". So, the only people who will be able to read the Demon tablet (and any other tablets that might still exist) are those who know how to read Enochian - angels and older demons (i.e. Crowley).
There seemed to already be quite a bit of information on the Demon tablet about constructing a weapon against them, how to see hellhounds, and sealing the gates of Hell via three trials. So, I doubt there will be any information specifically about the Darkness on it. There might be a tablet just about the Darkness because it is considered the Big Bad.
All of Castiel's grace - aside from what Metatron used to expel the angels from heaven (and whatever else he may have done that required angel grace) - existed in the vial. So, as a result, Castiel won't be as strong because he's only got a portion of his angel mojo remaining.
Actually the Word of God is not transcribed in Enochian. According to Supernatural Wiki, "It is written either in an ancient language or one not taught to angels, and only the prophet linked to it can read it. However it is not as straight forward as simply reading, and seems more akin to knowing how to translate it." The only reason Crowley was able to read info from the Angel Tablet was because Kevin translated it into a dead language that Crowley could read first and Crowley read the translation. As for the no more prophets thing maybe Metatron isn't the only one with the knowledge of how to "flip the Prophet switch". He is highly intelligent and has been known to plan ahead for any potential contingency.
Yeah you are probably right about there being a separate tablet about the Darkness. You also make a great point about how quite a bit of info has been revealed from Kevin's translations of the Demon tablet, but I don't think it has been completely translated either. If it had been fully translated it wouldn't make much sense for Metatron to have wanted it so badly. There must be something transcribed on it that Metatron wants kept undiscovered.
And what you just said about Castiel's current strength was pretty much a reworded version of what I said.
My bad about the language. At least I was in the right direction though... that only certain people will be able to read it.
Metatron left a lot of personal sidenotes on the tablets. So, he might want the tablet to make sure he has whatever he wrote down.
Oh... I guess the way I read your response earlier, I thought you were saying that only a portion of Castiel's grace was in the vial and the remaining existed somewhere else. Now that I reread it, I don't know why I thought you were saying that. sweatdrop
That you were. Only God, Metatron, and a Prophet of the Word of God could read them. God since well he's God, Metatron since he transcribed them, and a Prophet of the Word of God for the obvious reason.
I guess that's a reasonably potential reason for him wanting the Demon Tablet. It just goes back to there being something on it that Metatron doesn't want to be translated.
Ah I see. That makes sense that you misread it the first time.
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:09 pm
Prof. Moonie
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I'm waaaay excited. I'm just wondering if Lucifer comes back, will Michael appear as well?
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:27 pm
Angelsrocz
Kor Saiyajinkami
Prof. Moonie
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I'm waaaay excited. I'm just wondering if Lucifer comes back, will Michael appear as well?
I'd hafta say he'd hafta since he's also trapped in the cage as well. The only way I can see him not coming back is if Luci won the fight against Michael and killed him while they were both trapped inside the cage.
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I'm a bit behind on Supernatural (and some of my other shows I watch) right now due to being busy with work shifts and other events. So, I don't know what all is going on currently in the Supernatural franchise.
However...
I figured that Lucifer and Michael would have to make an appearance again at some point. Especially when there's a large amount of SPN fans that have been disgruntled about the fact that Adam was "forgotten" in the cage in hell.
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:54 pm
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
Prof. Moonie
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I'm a bit behind on Supernatural (and some of my other shows I watch) right now due to being busy with work shifts and other events. So, I don't know what all is going on currently in the Supernatural franchise.
However...
I figured that Lucifer and Michael would have to make an appearance again at some point. Especially when there's a large amount of SPN fans that have been disgruntled about the fact that Adam was "forgotten" in the cage in hell.
I could see why some people might be disgruntled by that. I guess that was still back in the days when Castiel was still one of those "Fluffy Winged Dickheads" and not a humanized angel. Poor Adam Winchester, I imagine he's probably pretty pissed off in the cage wondering why his brothers or none of the "Fluffy Winged Dickheads" decided he was worth saving. I could just imagine the look on his face when Castiel had saved Sam from the cage and ended up leaving him behind. And then again when Death rescue's Sam's soul from the cage. Poor Adam Winchester, I wouldn't be too surprised if he nursed a grudge against his brothers and Castiel.
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I'm a bit behind on Supernatural (and some of my other shows I watch) right now due to being busy with work shifts and other events. So, I don't know what all is going on currently in the Supernatural franchise.
However...
I figured that Lucifer and Michael would have to make an appearance again at some point. Especially when there's a large amount of SPN fans that have been disgruntled about the fact that Adam was "forgotten" in the cage in hell.
I could see why some people might be disgruntled by that. I guess that was still back in the days when Castiel was still one of those "Fluffy Winged Dickheads" and not a humanized angel. Poor Adam Winchester, I imagine he's probably pretty pissed off in the cage wondering why his brothers or none of the "Fluffy Winged Dickheads" decided he was worth saving. I could just imagine the look on his face when Castiel had saved Sam from the cage and ended up leaving him behind. And then again when Death rescue's Sam's soul from the cage. Poor Adam Winchester, I wouldn't be too surprised if he nursed a grudge against his brothers and Castiel.
Adam was last seen in Season 5, after becoming Michael's vessel.
Adam did originally plan on agreeing to be Michael's vessel before he was informed by Zachariah that he was just being used as a ruse to get Dean to be the vessel as prophesied. Despite this, Adam still ended up becoming Michael's vessel. With that being said, it's hard to say how aware Adam is of his surroundings when he's the vessel of Michael; he might not even know that Castiel saved Sam's body and Death later rescued Sam's soul. Especially when he's the vessel of Michael, one of the strongest archangels known in celestial history. Sam may have been able to overcome Gadreel but that's because he already had familiarity with being possessed, Crowley helped him become aware that he had an angel possessing him, and Gadreel was both a lesser angel and weakened from falling from heaven.
It's most likely Adam is pissed off at the angels, especially since they tricked him into being a pawn; he might not have a grudge against Castiel though since he was the only angel that was actually trying to protect him (and would've worked if Adam hadn't gone off wandering). I'm sure there's some anger towards Dean and Sam too, simply because he got left behind in the room trapped with Michael (and thus ultimately becoming Michael's vessel).
Of course, this is assuming that Adam is still alive after all this time. Who knows... there might be a similar situation as what happened with Castiel and his vessel Jimmy Novak - Jimmy ultimately died but Castiel still is able to use the body as his vessel. With Lucifer and Michael fighting in the cage, Adam's body could have easily been damaged to a critical point and died. Or it might be a similar case as Lucifer's - Lucifer, being one of the most powerful archangels, has immense power meaning that it can easily destroy a human body if it isn't his "one true vessel"; that's why we see Lucifer's vessel (as we've come to known his appearance as) begins to deteriorate. If Dean was prophesied as Michael's original intended vessel, Adam's body might not be the ideal vessel for Michael either - despite having Winchester blood running through his veins.
Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:12 am
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
Prof. Moonie
I can't wait for the return of Lucifer or as I've been calling him when I think about it, Luci. Are you excited about the return of Luci too?
I'm a bit behind on Supernatural (and some of my other shows I watch) right now due to being busy with work shifts and other events. So, I don't know what all is going on currently in the Supernatural franchise.
However...
I figured that Lucifer and Michael would have to make an appearance again at some point. Especially when there's a large amount of SPN fans that have been disgruntled about the fact that Adam was "forgotten" in the cage in hell.
I could see why some people might be disgruntled by that. I guess that was still back in the days when Castiel was still one of those "Fluffy Winged Dickheads" and not a humanized angel. Poor Adam Winchester, I imagine he's probably pretty pissed off in the cage wondering why his brothers or none of the "Fluffy Winged Dickheads" decided he was worth saving. I could just imagine the look on his face when Castiel had saved Sam from the cage and ended up leaving him behind. And then again when Death rescue's Sam's soul from the cage. Poor Adam Winchester, I wouldn't be too surprised if he nursed a grudge against his brothers and Castiel.
Adam was last seen in Season 5, after becoming Michael's vessel.
Adam did originally plan on agreeing to be Michael's vessel before he was informed by Zachariah that he was just being used as a ruse to get Dean to be the vessel as prophesied. Despite this, Adam still ended up becoming Michael's vessel. With that being said, it's hard to say how aware Adam is of his surroundings when he's the vessel of Michael; he might not even know that Castiel saved Sam's body and Death later rescued Sam's soul. Especially when he's the vessel of Michael, one of the strongest archangels known in celestial history. Sam may have been able to overcome Gadreel but that's because he already had familiarity with being possessed, Crowley helped him become aware that he had an angel possessing him, and Gadreel was both a lesser angel and weakened from falling from heaven.
It's most likely Adam is pissed off at the angels, especially since they tricked him into being a pawn; he might not have a grudge against Castiel though since he was the only angel that was actually trying to protect him (and would've worked if Adam hadn't gone off wandering). I'm sure there's some anger towards Dean and Sam too, simply because he got left behind in the room trapped with Michael (and thus ultimately becoming Michael's vessel).
Of course, this is assuming that Adam is still alive after all this time. Who knows... there might be a similar situation as what happened with Castiel and his vessel Jimmy Novak - Jimmy ultimately died but Castiel still is able to use the body as his vessel. With Lucifer and Michael fighting in the cage, Adam's body could have easily been damaged to a critical point and died. Or it might be a similar case as Lucifer's - Lucifer, being one of the most powerful archangels, has immense power meaning that it can easily destroy a human body if it isn't his "one true vessel"; that's why we see Lucifer's vessel (as we've come to known his appearance as) begins to deteriorate. If Dean was prophesied as Michael's original intended vessel, Adam's body might not be the ideal vessel for Michael either - despite having Winchester blood running through his veins.
I was thinking it might've been more along the lines of Lucifer and Michael not needing their vessels and/or them being separated by the mechanics of the cage. Sam seemed to have some memories of his time in the cage and also these visions seem to be more like flashbacks to his time in the cage that God triggered than what we would consider to be the typical visions. Seeing as it's a cage built for trapping an Archangel it is possible that it renders them unable to possess a host body while their in the cage and therefore forcibly removes them from a host body. This could support what I recall of how Sam does have horrible traumatic memories of time in the cage. It also could explain how Castiel was able to pull Sam's body outta the cage without bringing Luci along for the ride too. After all Lucifer is stronger than Castiel, so it does make you wonder how Castiel forced him outta Sam's body.
So going off the assumption that the 2 Archangels Lucifer and Michael weren't possessing the two Winchesters in the cage then you could say that Adam would know about how Castiel extracted Sam's body from the cage and how later Death extracted Sam's soul from the cage. Though I guess soon enough we will find out more about the mechanics of how the cage works seeing as Sam and possibly Dean too shall be visiting Hell to access the cage to get the help of Lucifer and possibly Michael too in defeating God's sister, the Darkness.
I was thinking it might've been more along the lines of Lucifer and Michael not needing their vessels and/or them being separated by the mechanics of the cage. Sam seemed to have some memories of his time in the cage and also these visions seem to be more like flashbacks to his time in the cage that God triggered than what we would consider to be the typical visions. Seeing as it's a cage built for trapping an Archangel it is possible that it renders them unable to possess a host body while their in the cage and therefore forcibly removes them from a host body. This could support what I recall of how Sam does have horrible traumatic memories of time in the cage. It also could explain how Castiel was able to pull Sam's body outta the cage without bringing Luci along for the ride too. After all Lucifer is stronger than Castiel, so it does make you wonder how Castiel forced him outta Sam's body.
So going off the assumption that the 2 Archangels Lucifer and Michael weren't possessing the two Winchesters in the cage then you could say that Adam would know about how Castiel extracted Sam's body from the cage and how later Death extracted Sam's soul from the cage. Though I guess soon enough we will find out more about the mechanics of how the cage works seeing as Sam and possibly Dean too shall be visiting Hell to access the cage to get the help of Lucifer and possibly Michael too in defeating God's sister, the Darkness.
The mechanics of Lucifer's Cage definitely are intriguing, that's for sure. I imagined it being a more advanced version of a Devil's Trap and Angel Trap, specifically built to keep Lucifer locked up. With the standard traps mentioned, once the intended supernatural being crosses over its perimeters, the being can't cross back over - spirit or body - until the perimeter is broken. Furthermore, the supernatural being is unable to use their typical powers (such as exiting out of their vessel). Supernatural beings that are not the intended target are not captured in said traps (like how Castiel can easily walk through a Demon's Trap with no issue). However, when I start thinking about what we know about the Cage, I begin to question whether this ideology applies to it as well. We know that once locked back up in the Cage, Lucifer tortured Sam - but did he do this from the inside out or did Lucifer manage to spirit out and torture Sam from the outside like Alistair did with Dean? If the same mechanics of the traps apply to the Cage, then the former would make sense, especially when Sam started imagining Lucifer once he was back topside and regained his memories of his hellish adventures in the Cage.
In terms of flashback memories, you have to take into consideration that there's a difference between being possessed by a supernatural being and not. Dean had memories of his time in hell because he had died and gone there on his own, no supernatural being involved. For Sam, he has memories of being in the cage probably because Lucifer specifically intended for that to happen - he was torturing him after all. Why torture him and not let him recall all of the details of being in the worse place in hell? Generally when an angel or demon occupies a vessel, the original consciousness of the human is suppressed, though it can come to the surface in rare instances - Jimmy Novak recognized Dean and Sam after Castiel was expelled from his body, and Sam managed to overpower Lucifer to regain full control of his body and jump into the Cage (taking Michael/Adam with him). Conversely, angels can suppress themselves from their vessels knowledge, like how Ezekiel hid within Sam's subconscious without Sam realizing he was possessed. So, when it comes to Adam, it depends on how both parties (Adam and Michael) are acting in the situation. Is Michael keeping Adam's mind suppressed, or is he letting Adam see the hellish environment in the Cage as a form of torture like Lucifer does with Sam ((especially when you consider the fact that Adam has Winchester blood in him; the angels hate the Winchesters, so it wouldn't be too surprised that Michael would take advantage of the situation))? And conversely, is Adam strong enough to overpower Michael (like Sam previously did with Lucifer) or is his inexperience with being possessed getting in the way?
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:02 pm
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
I was thinking it might've been more along the lines of Lucifer and Michael not needing their vessels and/or them being separated by the mechanics of the cage. Sam seemed to have some memories of his time in the cage and also these visions seem to be more like flashbacks to his time in the cage that God triggered than what we would consider to be the typical visions. Seeing as it's a cage built for trapping an Archangel it is possible that it renders them unable to possess a host body while their in the cage and therefore forcibly removes them from a host body. This could support what I recall of how Sam does have horrible traumatic memories of time in the cage. It also could explain how Castiel was able to pull Sam's body outta the cage without bringing Luci along for the ride too. After all Lucifer is stronger than Castiel, so it does make you wonder how Castiel forced him outta Sam's body.
So going off the assumption that the 2 Archangels Lucifer and Michael weren't possessing the two Winchesters in the cage then you could say that Adam would know about how Castiel extracted Sam's body from the cage and how later Death extracted Sam's soul from the cage. Though I guess soon enough we will find out more about the mechanics of how the cage works seeing as Sam and possibly Dean too shall be visiting Hell to access the cage to get the help of Lucifer and possibly Michael too in defeating God's sister, the Darkness.
The mechanics of Lucifer's Cage definitely are intriguing, that's for sure. I imagined it being a more advanced version of a Devil's Trap and Angel Trap, specifically built to keep Lucifer locked up. With the standard traps mentioned, once the intended supernatural being crosses over its perimeters, the being can't cross back over - spirit or body - until the perimeter is broken. Furthermore, the supernatural being is unable to use their typical powers (such as exiting out of their vessel). Supernatural beings that are not the intended target are not captured in said traps (like how Castiel can easily walk through a Demon's Trap with no issue). However, when I start thinking about what we know about the Cage, I begin to question whether this ideology applies to it as well. We know that once locked back up in the Cage, Lucifer tortured Sam - but did he do this from the inside out or did Lucifer manage to spirit out and torture Sam from the outside like Alistair did with Dean? If the same mechanics of the traps apply to the Cage, then the former would make sense, especially when Sam started imagining Lucifer once he was back topside and regained his memories of his hellish adventures in the Cage.
In terms of flashback memories, you have to take into consideration that there's a difference between being possessed by a supernatural being and not. Dean had memories of his time in hell because he had died and gone there on his own, no supernatural being involved. For Sam, he has memories of being in the cage probably because Lucifer specifically intended for that to happen - he was torturing him after all. Why torture him and not let him recall all of the details of being in the worse place in hell? Generally when an angel or demon occupies a vessel, the original consciousness of the human is suppressed, though it can come to the surface in rare instances - Jimmy Novak recognized Dean and Sam after Castiel was expelled from his body, and Sam managed to overpower Lucifer to regain full control of his body and jump into the Cage (taking Michael/Adam with him). Conversely, angels can suppress themselves from their vessels knowledge, like how Ezekiel hid within Sam's subconscious without Sam realizing he was possessed. So, when it comes to Adam, it depends on how both parties (Adam and Michael) are acting in the situation. Is Michael keeping Adam's mind suppressed, or is he letting Adam see the hellish environment in the Cage as a form of torture like Lucifer does with Sam ((especially when you consider the fact that Adam has Winchester blood in him; the angels hate the Winchesters, so it wouldn't be too surprised that Michael would take advantage of the situation))? And conversely, is Adam strong enough to overpower Michael (like Sam previously did with Lucifer) or is his inexperience with being possessed getting in the way?
It brings out the question of, if you version of the Lucifer's Cage's mechanics are correct then how was Castiel able to pull Sam out without getting stuck himself in the process and therefore failing to do so? Tho I guess we shall find out soon enough how it works seeing as they'll be returning to the Cage to get help from Lucifer and possibly Michael too.
I wonder tho what they might hafta exchange in order to get Lucifer's help. It might even be possible that Lucifer will only provide the help or is only able to provide the help if he is in his one true vessel, Sam Winchester. Also in freeing Lucifer and possibly Michael too, I imagine they risk starting either another Apocalypse &/or a hostile take over(s) of Heaven &/or Hell.
I was thinking it might've been more along the lines of Lucifer and Michael not needing their vessels and/or them being separated by the mechanics of the cage. Sam seemed to have some memories of his time in the cage and also these visions seem to be more like flashbacks to his time in the cage that God triggered than what we would consider to be the typical visions. Seeing as it's a cage built for trapping an Archangel it is possible that it renders them unable to possess a host body while their in the cage and therefore forcibly removes them from a host body. This could support what I recall of how Sam does have horrible traumatic memories of time in the cage. It also could explain how Castiel was able to pull Sam's body outta the cage without bringing Luci along for the ride too. After all Lucifer is stronger than Castiel, so it does make you wonder how Castiel forced him outta Sam's body.
So going off the assumption that the 2 Archangels Lucifer and Michael weren't possessing the two Winchesters in the cage then you could say that Adam would know about how Castiel extracted Sam's body from the cage and how later Death extracted Sam's soul from the cage. Though I guess soon enough we will find out more about the mechanics of how the cage works seeing as Sam and possibly Dean too shall be visiting Hell to access the cage to get the help of Lucifer and possibly Michael too in defeating God's sister, the Darkness.
The mechanics of Lucifer's Cage definitely are intriguing, that's for sure. I imagined it being a more advanced version of a Devil's Trap and Angel Trap, specifically built to keep Lucifer locked up. With the standard traps mentioned, once the intended supernatural being crosses over its perimeters, the being can't cross back over - spirit or body - until the perimeter is broken. Furthermore, the supernatural being is unable to use their typical powers (such as exiting out of their vessel). Supernatural beings that are not the intended target are not captured in said traps (like how Castiel can easily walk through a Demon's Trap with no issue). However, when I start thinking about what we know about the Cage, I begin to question whether this ideology applies to it as well. We know that once locked back up in the Cage, Lucifer tortured Sam - but did he do this from the inside out or did Lucifer manage to spirit out and torture Sam from the outside like Alistair did with Dean? If the same mechanics of the traps apply to the Cage, then the former would make sense, especially when Sam started imagining Lucifer once he was back topside and regained his memories of his hellish adventures in the Cage.
In terms of flashback memories, you have to take into consideration that there's a difference between being possessed by a supernatural being and not. Dean had memories of his time in hell because he had died and gone there on his own, no supernatural being involved. For Sam, he has memories of being in the cage probably because Lucifer specifically intended for that to happen - he was torturing him after all. Why torture him and not let him recall all of the details of being in the worse place in hell? Generally when an angel or demon occupies a vessel, the original consciousness of the human is suppressed, though it can come to the surface in rare instances - Jimmy Novak recognized Dean and Sam after Castiel was expelled from his body, and Sam managed to overpower Lucifer to regain full control of his body and jump into the Cage (taking Michael/Adam with him). Conversely, angels can suppress themselves from their vessels knowledge, like how Ezekiel hid within Sam's subconscious without Sam realizing he was possessed. So, when it comes to Adam, it depends on how both parties (Adam and Michael) are acting in the situation. Is Michael keeping Adam's mind suppressed, or is he letting Adam see the hellish environment in the Cage as a form of torture like Lucifer does with Sam ((especially when you consider the fact that Adam has Winchester blood in him; the angels hate the Winchesters, so it wouldn't be too surprised that Michael would take advantage of the situation))? And conversely, is Adam strong enough to overpower Michael (like Sam previously did with Lucifer) or is his inexperience with being possessed getting in the way?
It brings out the question of, if you version of the Lucifer's Cage's mechanics are correct then how was Castiel able to pull Sam out without getting stuck himself in the process and therefore failing to do so? Tho I guess we shall find out soon enough how it works seeing as they'll be returning to the Cage to get help from Lucifer and possibly Michael too.
I wonder tho what they might hafta exchange in order to get Lucifer's help. It might even be possible that Lucifer will only provide the help or is only able to provide the help if he is in his one true vessel, Sam Winchester. Also in freeing Lucifer and possibly Michael too, I imagine they risk starting either another Apocalypse &/or a hostile take over(s) of Heaven &/or Hell.
If the Cage was made to trap archangels, specifically Lucifer, then it probably wouldn't capture Castiel, since he's a regular angel. In terms of hierarchy, he's below archangels but still pretty high up the ladder, hence the reason why all of the other angels keep looking to him as a leader of sorts. However, with him still being an angel, it's possible some of the Cage's mechanics may have messed with Castiel's powers... and maybe the reason why Sam's soul got left behind.
Things will definitely get interesting if Lucifer and Michael are released from the cage, that's for sure.
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:43 pm
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
Prof. Moonie
Kor Saiyajinkami
I was thinking it might've been more along the lines of Lucifer and Michael not needing their vessels and/or them being separated by the mechanics of the cage. Sam seemed to have some memories of his time in the cage and also these visions seem to be more like flashbacks to his time in the cage that God triggered than what we would consider to be the typical visions. Seeing as it's a cage built for trapping an Archangel it is possible that it renders them unable to possess a host body while their in the cage and therefore forcibly removes them from a host body. This could support what I recall of how Sam does have horrible traumatic memories of time in the cage. It also could explain how Castiel was able to pull Sam's body outta the cage without bringing Luci along for the ride too. After all Lucifer is stronger than Castiel, so it does make you wonder how Castiel forced him outta Sam's body.
So going off the assumption that the 2 Archangels Lucifer and Michael weren't possessing the two Winchesters in the cage then you could say that Adam would know about how Castiel extracted Sam's body from the cage and how later Death extracted Sam's soul from the cage. Though I guess soon enough we will find out more about the mechanics of how the cage works seeing as Sam and possibly Dean too shall be visiting Hell to access the cage to get the help of Lucifer and possibly Michael too in defeating God's sister, the Darkness.
The mechanics of Lucifer's Cage definitely are intriguing, that's for sure. I imagined it being a more advanced version of a Devil's Trap and Angel Trap, specifically built to keep Lucifer locked up. With the standard traps mentioned, once the intended supernatural being crosses over its perimeters, the being can't cross back over - spirit or body - until the perimeter is broken. Furthermore, the supernatural being is unable to use their typical powers (such as exiting out of their vessel). Supernatural beings that are not the intended target are not captured in said traps (like how Castiel can easily walk through a Demon's Trap with no issue). However, when I start thinking about what we know about the Cage, I begin to question whether this ideology applies to it as well. We know that once locked back up in the Cage, Lucifer tortured Sam - but did he do this from the inside out or did Lucifer manage to spirit out and torture Sam from the outside like Alistair did with Dean? If the same mechanics of the traps apply to the Cage, then the former would make sense, especially when Sam started imagining Lucifer once he was back topside and regained his memories of his hellish adventures in the Cage.
In terms of flashback memories, you have to take into consideration that there's a difference between being possessed by a supernatural being and not. Dean had memories of his time in hell because he had died and gone there on his own, no supernatural being involved. For Sam, he has memories of being in the cage probably because Lucifer specifically intended for that to happen - he was torturing him after all. Why torture him and not let him recall all of the details of being in the worse place in hell? Generally when an angel or demon occupies a vessel, the original consciousness of the human is suppressed, though it can come to the surface in rare instances - Jimmy Novak recognized Dean and Sam after Castiel was expelled from his body, and Sam managed to overpower Lucifer to regain full control of his body and jump into the Cage (taking Michael/Adam with him). Conversely, angels can suppress themselves from their vessels knowledge, like how Ezekiel hid within Sam's subconscious without Sam realizing he was possessed. So, when it comes to Adam, it depends on how both parties (Adam and Michael) are acting in the situation. Is Michael keeping Adam's mind suppressed, or is he letting Adam see the hellish environment in the Cage as a form of torture like Lucifer does with Sam ((especially when you consider the fact that Adam has Winchester blood in him; the angels hate the Winchesters, so it wouldn't be too surprised that Michael would take advantage of the situation))? And conversely, is Adam strong enough to overpower Michael (like Sam previously did with Lucifer) or is his inexperience with being possessed getting in the way?
It brings out the question of, if you version of the Lucifer's Cage's mechanics are correct then how was Castiel able to pull Sam out without getting stuck himself in the process and therefore failing to do so? Tho I guess we shall find out soon enough how it works seeing as they'll be returning to the Cage to get help from Lucifer and possibly Michael too.
I wonder tho what they might hafta exchange in order to get Lucifer's help. It might even be possible that Lucifer will only provide the help or is only able to provide the help if he is in his one true vessel, Sam Winchester. Also in freeing Lucifer and possibly Michael too, I imagine they risk starting either another Apocalypse &/or a hostile take over(s) of Heaven &/or Hell.
If the Cage was made to trap archangels, specifically Lucifer, then it probably wouldn't capture Castiel, since he's a regular angel. In terms of hierarchy, he's below archangels but still pretty high up the ladder, hence the reason why all of the other angels keep looking to him as a leader of sorts. However, with him still being an angel, it's possible some of the Cage's mechanics may have messed with Castiel's powers... and maybe the reason why Sam's soul got left behind.
Things will definitely get interesting if Lucifer and Michael are released from the cage, that's for sure.
Makes sense. So you think that the Cage would also make them practically powerless, while Castiel might only be weakened by the Cage when he entered it to get Sam out? Is that what you're thinking allowed Castiel to overpower Lucifer and free Sam's body since you still think it was possessed by Lucifer when Castiel came to save Sam from the Cage? So I guess both of our predictions about how the Cage works make sense then.
Well at least we'll get one more episode closer to their return and us finding out how the Cage functions after tomorrow night's episode airs. Speaking of that, how many episodes more do you think we'll hafta watch until we get to the episode where at least Sam goes to Hell to get help from Lucifer &/or Michael?
I was thinking it might've been more along the lines of Lucifer and Michael not needing their vessels and/or them being separated by the mechanics of the cage. Sam seemed to have some memories of his time in the cage and also these visions seem to be more like flashbacks to his time in the cage that God triggered than what we would consider to be the typical visions. Seeing as it's a cage built for trapping an Archangel it is possible that it renders them unable to possess a host body while their in the cage and therefore forcibly removes them from a host body. This could support what I recall of how Sam does have horrible traumatic memories of time in the cage. It also could explain how Castiel was able to pull Sam's body outta the cage without bringing Luci along for the ride too. After all Lucifer is stronger than Castiel, so it does make you wonder how Castiel forced him outta Sam's body.
So going off the assumption that the 2 Archangels Lucifer and Michael weren't possessing the two Winchesters in the cage then you could say that Adam would know about how Castiel extracted Sam's body from the cage and how later Death extracted Sam's soul from the cage. Though I guess soon enough we will find out more about the mechanics of how the cage works seeing as Sam and possibly Dean too shall be visiting Hell to access the cage to get the help of Lucifer and possibly Michael too in defeating God's sister, the Darkness.
The mechanics of Lucifer's Cage definitely are intriguing, that's for sure. I imagined it being a more advanced version of a Devil's Trap and Angel Trap, specifically built to keep Lucifer locked up. With the standard traps mentioned, once the intended supernatural being crosses over its perimeters, the being can't cross back over - spirit or body - until the perimeter is broken. Furthermore, the supernatural being is unable to use their typical powers (such as exiting out of their vessel). Supernatural beings that are not the intended target are not captured in said traps (like how Castiel can easily walk through a Demon's Trap with no issue). However, when I start thinking about what we know about the Cage, I begin to question whether this ideology applies to it as well. We know that once locked back up in the Cage, Lucifer tortured Sam - but did he do this from the inside out or did Lucifer manage to spirit out and torture Sam from the outside like Alistair did with Dean? If the same mechanics of the traps apply to the Cage, then the former would make sense, especially when Sam started imagining Lucifer once he was back topside and regained his memories of his hellish adventures in the Cage.
In terms of flashback memories, you have to take into consideration that there's a difference between being possessed by a supernatural being and not. Dean had memories of his time in hell because he had died and gone there on his own, no supernatural being involved. For Sam, he has memories of being in the cage probably because Lucifer specifically intended for that to happen - he was torturing him after all. Why torture him and not let him recall all of the details of being in the worse place in hell? Generally when an angel or demon occupies a vessel, the original consciousness of the human is suppressed, though it can come to the surface in rare instances - Jimmy Novak recognized Dean and Sam after Castiel was expelled from his body, and Sam managed to overpower Lucifer to regain full control of his body and jump into the Cage (taking Michael/Adam with him). Conversely, angels can suppress themselves from their vessels knowledge, like how Ezekiel hid within Sam's subconscious without Sam realizing he was possessed. So, when it comes to Adam, it depends on how both parties (Adam and Michael) are acting in the situation. Is Michael keeping Adam's mind suppressed, or is he letting Adam see the hellish environment in the Cage as a form of torture like Lucifer does with Sam ((especially when you consider the fact that Adam has Winchester blood in him; the angels hate the Winchesters, so it wouldn't be too surprised that Michael would take advantage of the situation))? And conversely, is Adam strong enough to overpower Michael (like Sam previously did with Lucifer) or is his inexperience with being possessed getting in the way?
It brings out the question of, if you version of the Lucifer's Cage's mechanics are correct then how was Castiel able to pull Sam out without getting stuck himself in the process and therefore failing to do so? Tho I guess we shall find out soon enough how it works seeing as they'll be returning to the Cage to get help from Lucifer and possibly Michael too.
I wonder tho what they might hafta exchange in order to get Lucifer's help. It might even be possible that Lucifer will only provide the help or is only able to provide the help if he is in his one true vessel, Sam Winchester. Also in freeing Lucifer and possibly Michael too, I imagine they risk starting either another Apocalypse &/or a hostile take over(s) of Heaven &/or Hell.
If the Cage was made to trap archangels, specifically Lucifer, then it probably wouldn't capture Castiel, since he's a regular angel. In terms of hierarchy, he's below archangels but still pretty high up the ladder, hence the reason why all of the other angels keep looking to him as a leader of sorts. However, with him still being an angel, it's possible some of the Cage's mechanics may have messed with Castiel's powers... and maybe the reason why Sam's soul got left behind.
Things will definitely get interesting if Lucifer and Michael are released from the cage, that's for sure.
Makes sense. So you think that the Cage would also make them practically powerless, while Castiel might only be weakened by the Cage when he entered it to get Sam out? Is that what you're thinking allowed Castiel to overpower Lucifer and free Sam's body since you still think it was possessed by Lucifer when Castiel came to save Sam from the Cage? So I guess both of our predictions about how the Cage works make sense then.
Well at least we'll get one more episode closer to their return and us finding out how the Cage functions after tomorrow night's episode airs. Speaking of that, how many episodes more do you think we'll hafta watch until we get to the episode where at least Sam goes to Hell to get help from Lucifer &/or Michael?
If the mechanics of the angel and demon traps apply to the Cage, just on a higher level to deal with an archangel, then yeah, they essentially would be unable to use their angel powers ((supernatural beings still seem to have control of the level of conciousness of their vessel however, as we saw with Ruby #1 - so Lucifer could easily torment Sam without having to use his powers)). If Lucifer was still possessing Sam's body when in the cage, it's possible Castiel used the Angel Exorcism incantation ((which we first see in 4.16; Alastair tried using it on Castiel but Sam interrupted)) or a variation to expel Lucifer from Sam. *shrugs* Hard to say for certain since we know very little about the Cage at this time.
Well, I can't say for certain since I don't know what's going on plot wise in the current episodes yet. I figure it will be relatively soon, probably when Supernatural returns after the winter hiatus. I suspect there will probably be an episode or two of Sam (and Dean?) going down to hell, seeing the Cage again after such a long time and encountering the angelic brothers (Lucifer and Michael), and then figuring out how to release them and get back topside.
