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 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:10 pm
Yuuki Aoyagi:
Naivety? Wow, talk about calling the kettle black.
Your so-called facts all ignore common sense and recent scientific thought and development. Yes, Darwin's original theories were flawed. Nobody says that he got it perfectly right, and that his work is the end-all be-all of evolution.
All the information you posted as far as the fossil record completely ignores the fact that the fossil record is INCOMPLETE! Fossils are incredibly difficult to form, let alone survive to present day. So, it is amazing we have what we have!
Your homology argument is flawed. Or more accurately whoever wrote it was flawed. But anyways, it is not fair to compare living beings to inanimate objects like cars, carts, and vacuum cleaners. Animals and plants can grow and change. Inanimate object cannot. Of course there is no common ancestor... they didn't breed! They needed a creator.
The argument about humans evolving from apes. Actually, no we did not. We both evolved from a common, APE-LIKE ancestor. Humans are so different, and have undergone so much evolution, because the need for change arose. We exploited changes in the environment, in order to out-compete. Chimpanzees and other apes have changed, but not as much, because they fill their niche in the environment, and have no need to evolve further!
Honestly, you need to not just copy and paste from somewhere else, which is what you obviously did, because you cannot form your own opinions.
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:09 pm
Deppfan Teague Yuuki Aoyagi: Naivety? Wow, talk about calling the kettle black. Your so-called facts all ignore common sense and recent scientific thought and development. Yes, Darwin's original theories were flawed. Nobody says that he got it perfectly right, and that his work is the end-all be-all of evolution. All the information you posted as far as the fossil record completely ignores the fact that the fossil record is INCOMPLETE! Fossils are incredibly difficult to form, let alone survive to present day. So, it is amazing we have what we have! Your homology argument is flawed. Or more accurately whoever wrote it was flawed. But anyways, it is not fair to compare living beings to inanimate objects like cars, carts, and vacuum cleaners. Animals and plants can grow and change. Inanimate object cannot. Of course there is no common ancestor... they didn't breed! They needed a creator. The argument about humans evolving from apes. Actually, no we did not. We both evolved from a common, APE-LIKE ancestor. Humans are so different, and have undergone so much evolution, because the need for change arose. We exploited changes in the environment, in order to out-compete. Chimpanzees and other apes have changed, but not as much, because they fill their niche in the environment, and have no need to evolve further! Honestly, you need to not just copy and paste from somewhere else, which is what you obviously did, because you cannot form your own opinions. By Truith Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:54 am "First I would like 2 lay down the rules.
1. You can fight for either side, meaning that you can argue either for or against Christianity.
2. please be open minded, don't dis someone just because you don't like what they say.
3. Only logical arguments will be accepted any claims without some kind of proof will be ignored.
4. Be kind and courteous"I wasn't trying to form my own opinion, My opinion has gotten me nowhere in the past, if there's one thing i know, it's people don't care about your opinion, unless in Coincides with their own. Opinions don't matter, Facts do. everyone was giving "proof" that Christianity was false, I just thought I'd give some "proof" that evolution was False, you couldn't possible be getting mad at me for doing the same Atheists do everyday, could you? Also, with the assumptions: please just stop, for your own sake. No Offense intended: Yuuki Aoyagi. Note: this will be my Last post in this thread.
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:28 am
Yuuki Aoyagi Deppfan Teague Yuuki Aoyagi: Naivety? Wow, talk about calling the kettle black. Your so-called facts all ignore common sense and recent scientific thought and development. Yes, Darwin's original theories were flawed. Nobody says that he got it perfectly right, and that his work is the end-all be-all of evolution. All the information you posted as far as the fossil record completely ignores the fact that the fossil record is INCOMPLETE! Fossils are incredibly difficult to form, let alone survive to present day. So, it is amazing we have what we have! Your homology argument is flawed. Or more accurately whoever wrote it was flawed. But anyways, it is not fair to compare living beings to inanimate objects like cars, carts, and vacuum cleaners. Animals and plants can grow and change. Inanimate object cannot. Of course there is no common ancestor... they didn't breed! They needed a creator. The argument about humans evolving from apes. Actually, no we did not. We both evolved from a common, APE-LIKE ancestor. Humans are so different, and have undergone so much evolution, because the need for change arose. We exploited changes in the environment, in order to out-compete. Chimpanzees and other apes have changed, but not as much, because they fill their niche in the environment, and have no need to evolve further! Honestly, you need to not just copy and paste from somewhere else, which is what you obviously did, because you cannot form your own opinions. By Truith Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:54 am "First I would like 2 lay down the rules.
1. You can fight for either side, meaning that you can argue either for or against Christianity.
2. please be open minded, don't dis someone just because you don't like what they say.
3. Only logical arguments will be accepted any claims without some kind of proof will be ignored.
4. Be kind and courteous"I wasn't trying to form my own opinion, My opinion has gotten me nowhere in the past, if there's one thing i know, it's people don't care about your opinion, unless in Coincides with their own. Opinions don't matter, Facts do. everyone was giving "proof" that Christianity was false, I just thought I'd give some "proof" that evolution was False, you couldn't possible be getting mad at me for doing the same Atheists do everyday, could you? Also, with the assumptions: please just stop, for your own sake. No Offense intended: Yuuki Aoyagi. Note: this will be my Last post in this thread. Last I checked, the word "Naivety" was not being kind and courteous. Also, I as well as a few others that are posting in this thread, are not completely nixing the idea of god, while everyone that is for Christianity is completely disbanding the scientific FACT that evolution is the primary reason of our being. There is the possibility that there is a higher being out there that puts everything into motion to set evolution up to create new life. But we evolved from chimpanzees. This is a fact. I know it, you know it, it is universally accepted by most everyone except religious extremists (yes, Christian missionaries are extremists, born-again Christians are extremists, the Taliban, al Qaeda are extremists). Missionaries force Christianity upon the poor and starving people of third world countries, I have been on a mission trip before, I know what they do. al Qaeda is trying to force their beliefs upon the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, and other middle eastern countries (thus the terrorism) But I digress..
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:29 pm
Elastic Yellow I have a question. Didn't God "create everything," meaning he created Satan/Hell? Did he only create these for his own selfish wants of eternally damning non-believers? If this is true, it brings up the question doesn't God love everyone? Why would he WANT to eternally damn them??
When I look at this, all I can think is: "Christianity is full of hypocracy." :] God didn't create Satan and Hell for the sole purpose of damning us to it. He made Satan as an angel, and Satan (being an angel of beauty and high power) tried taking over God's throne in heaven by convincing 1/3 of the other angels that they could overthrow him and things would be better. As punishment, God made Hell and damned Satan to it. Eternal damnation for humans is punishment, not unfairly though, because we were created for worship. That doesn't mean he doesn't love us though. just because a father disciplines a child doesn't mean he doesn't love the child, right?
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:10 pm
Terrynvail Elastic Yellow I have a question. Didn't God "create everything," meaning he created Satan/Hell? Did he only create these for his own selfish wants of eternally damning non-believers? If this is true, it brings up the question doesn't God love everyone? Why would he WANT to eternally damn them??
When I look at this, all I can think is: "Christianity is full of hypocracy." :] God didn't create Satan and Hell for the sole purpose of damning us to it. He made Satan as an angel, and Satan (being an angel of beauty and high power) tried taking over God's throne in heaven by convincing 1/3 of the other angels that they could overthrow him and things would be better. As punishment, God made Hell and damned Satan to it. Eternal damnation for humans is punishment, not unfairly though, because we were created for worship. That doesn't mean he doesn't love us though. just because a father disciplines a child doesn't mean he doesn't love the child, right? Whoa, whoa, whoa. I've read the bible. It only mentions satan as an angel once, who most Christians know as Lucifer, in Isaiah 14:12, where Lucifer was cast out of heaven. However, it mentions nowhere that Lucifer actually became satan. (It DOES, however, mention The King of Babylon, but that's different.) Now, if you're taking cue from The Divine Comedy, which is Dante's take on Hell, then, yes. Lucifer is satan. But, once again, that's completely different.
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:40 pm
Everyone in here replying seems to be swinging majorly to one side or the other. Either an obsessive Christian or, way on the other side, an avid naturalist or atheist or whatever else.
Mind if I put in my word for a moment, here?
I'm rather stuck in the middle, really, though I do swing more towards the idea of evolution.
Yes, our bodies and every living thing in the world is made up of DNA and protein strands. Yes, some of those DNA strands are, in fact, not used to make up the body, but, rather, to 'turn on' the DNA that decides whether we have blonde hair or brown hair, blue eyes or green eyes. And those 'switches' have their own DNA strands behind them that decide the timing of the flip of the 'switch'.
( Here, I am quoting a documentary that I recently watched, and, yes, these statements are facts that have been proven. However, you are perfectly capable of looking it up for yourself, if you so wish. )
In my opinion, however, there is some sort of energy that powers everything. You can completely disregard this, if you want to, as there is no proof, so far, of it.
Don't get me wrong. I absolutely do NOT think that this 'energy' is a being, tangible or not, that has a mind of it's own and decides how the world turns. It's simply an energy. Like electricity. It sets off a chain reaction of friction, warmth, vibration, division of cells and the growing and the ultimate transformation of those cells. Yes, evolution.
It is proven, however, that we did NOT evolve from chimpanzees, or even Lucy, for that matter. We DO, however, share a common ancestor with them. We all branched off from the one common line. You're cousins with and ape. I don't even HAVE to prove it. All you have to do is look at different breeds of dogs! Look at a terrier, then look at a Saint Bernard. They have incredibly similar DNA, they can still mate, yet, they look completely different, no? Plus, evolution has, in fact, been proven, in animals other than humans (although, the evidence for humans is pretty strong, too). A whippet, for example, comes to being by crossing Greyhounds, terriers and other dogs. Whippets can still breed with other dogs, yet, they're a completely new breed.
Similar to breeding different types of birds, or even flies, for that matter.
You still don't believe me? Go look at a fetus and watch as it changes over time. It's like a very quick form of evolution, in a way.
Many of my Christian friends claim that evolution is not possible because 'the Earth has only been here for about 7,000 years'. . . I can't even BEGIN to wonder how they believe that, as it has already been proven, numerous times, that the Earth has been here for billions of years. Yes, it can and HAS been proven! But, they still hold it in their minds that the Earth isn't even 10,000 years old, yet.
From this point, I will be quoting much from George Carlin. Because I like him. He was a very intellegent man.
Many Christian believe that 'God' is 'a little man upstairs' who created us and loves us.
He doesn't. Or, rather, 'it' doesn't.
All the Christians I know are always saying 'God is on their side, God loves us, God will help us'.
Really? Go tell that to the thousands of dead soldiers in your local military cemetery. THEY believed God was on their side.
So did the soldiers from the other army, whom they were fighting, at the time.
The blue army General says 'God is on our side, boys. We can win!'
The red army General says 'God is with us, so we can win this war!'
SOMEONE is going to be disappointed!
God must have a pretty busy life, too. Billions of people praying to him, asking for his help, every single day.
He would need a couple of days off, yeah?
Christians gave him Sunday.
Jews gave him Saturday.
Muslims gave him Friday.
God has a three day weekend!
That ends my quoting of George.
You know, I rather believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
You may ask 'If it's invisible, how do you know it's pink? Or even a unicorn, for that matter?'
Exactly.
Blind belief.
I BELIEVE it's invisible, pink and a unicorn, therefore, it must be.
Human perception.
Differences of opinion and the forcing of that opinion on others.
All religious people do this.
I live in a small town, and there's a man doing that in my town, right now.
I went to church with a friend of mine.
Now, if you ask me, this pastor seemed more like a rockstar than a holy man. He was singing, telling everyone to 'put their hands up, PRAISE THE LORD!'
You know what he said after that?
'We're going to convert everyone in this town!'
That was a notch over the disturbance level, for me.
It's some new-age church that they set up. They're setting it up in other places, too. Mostly small towns that have 'not felt the touch of God' as he put it.
You know what? I think he's slowly taking over small towns. Then he'll start on larger towns, then small cities and keep going and going until he's taken over the world, making everyone believe the exact same thing he believes!
Isn't that what religion is, anyway? One's opinion that a few other people fancied? And then those people started bullying others to believe it, too. Using symbols and people, such as Jesus, to 'spread the word'.
Jesus was his own man, though. I appreciate the idea of him. As a matter of fact, I think my beliefs are rather similar to his. When someone says 'father', you would automatically think of a tangible person, yes? Well, and this is just my opinion, I think what Jesus meant when he said 'he is my father' was that this 'being' was his source of energy, life, if you will.
Much like my belief.
A simple energy that turns things on and off.
Hooray.
Yes, I know there is not much proof in my theory, but, you know what?
That's rather pointless, anyway. 'Proof' is something that would undoubtedly make a person believe a certain thing.
Christians believe that simple scriptures in the bible are 'proof'.
Therefore, the whole idea of 'proof' and 'facts' depends on people's point of view, which varies so hugely from person to person, that the whole idea of so-called 'proof' becomes completely irrelevent. Therefore, my statement rests on your personal opinion, as does much of everything else in the world.
Also relying on people's opinions, is that someone will ALWAYS have a contradiction for EVERYTHING. I bet that, right now, someone is looking at this post and thinking up a most wonderful contradiction to everything I have written, about to reply this contradiction. BUT, WAIT! I'm going to contradict your contradction! I'll bet that, after you type said contradiction, you will say, 'I am entitled to my opinion', or, at least, you will think it.
Well, you know what? If you're entitled to your opinion, then I'm entitled to my opinion, too, and my opinion is that you have no opinion!
I rest my case. Good day.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You know what I call it? The big electron... It doesn't really matter. It doesn't really care. It just IS. And so are we. For a little while."
~ George Carlin
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:41 pm
Oh, gee. That was a long post. >.>
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:06 pm
::claps:: Thank you for that. I like your way of looking at things. It's just the omnipotent, all-knowing all-seeing all-being person that created everything all at once aspect that doesn't jive with me. I do agree that there's some force or energy, or multiple ones, that set everything in motion and keeps it all in check. But, I guess you could say I see it in a scientific standpoint.
Your quoting of George Carlin reminded me of a song my aunt's husband, who was raised Catholic, likes to quote. It's Blasphemous Rumours by Depeche Mode.
"I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find Him laughing"
It kind of reinforces the idea that, if there is a God, a loving and forgiving God, as Christians today like to see it, how could all the horrible s**t in the world go on?
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:34 pm
Deppfan Teague ::claps:: Thank you for that. I like your way of looking at things. It's just the omnipotent, all-knowing all-seeing all-being person that created everything all at once aspect that doesn't jive with me. I do agree that there's some force or energy, or multiple ones, that set everything in motion and keeps it all in check. But, I guess you could say I see it in a scientific standpoint. Your quoting of George Carlin reminded me of a song my aunt's husband, who was raised Catholic, likes to quote. It's Blasphemous Rumours by Depeche Mode. "I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor And when I die I expect to find Him laughing" It kind of reinforces the idea that, if there is a God, a loving and forgiving God, as Christians today like to see it, how could all the horrible s**t in the world go on? SIMPLE. It isn't a 'he', it's an 'it' and 'it' has never shown itself to us, has never ACTUALLY spoken to us. Yeah, I've read the bible. Once again, it's been translated so many times that it's completely different from the original version, plus, people can really SAY anything. "OH. HEY. YOU KNOW WHAT? GOD JUST SPOKE TO ME. HE TOLD ME TO MOVE ALL OF THE CHICKENS FROM THE AMERICAN CONTINENT TO THE CHINESE CONTINENT." .... As I have not been 'smitten to a burning, painful Hell', yet, I'm going to assume that this 'god' doesn't really care. Which suffices to say that it has no actual concious or being. It's just a giant ball of energy that doesn't care if we die or not. Once again, my amazing logic conquers all. <.< Just kidding, I'm not THAT egotistical. ;D
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:44 pm
Your question is vague.. Do you mean is the existence of a God logical or is the fact that people believe in God logical.
For me I don't believe that God exists and many, many miles of discussion before this one has failed to reach a satisfying conclusion to everyone, read the Bible and didn't like it much but I don't mind people who hold this faith. Whether or not this God exists, the religion has provided a sense of community in the followers and a slab in the foundation of the culture (at least here). Maybe sometimes a person needs to have this spiritual support to start over again or live a good life morally. In that case, why does it matter if the stories in the Bibles are true or if God exists?
Now what some do in the name of religion.. don't get me started.
@ the attack on Darwinism... don't go there. Please.
Complicateness of the cell? Experiments have replicated the conditions of primeval earth and from inorganic compounds, gotten organic compounds. Of course nothing happens overnight. There only need to be molecules at first, I think the theory now is RNA first, that can replicate with the help of another molecule. Later, molecules that were enveloped had better chance of passing information on. I won't go through the whole process (go look up a bio book). But if you look at the organelles mitochondria and chloroplasts, the double membranes indicate they were once smaller prokaryote swallowed up by bigger one. Won't argue for every point but intermediate fossils have been found. For scientific theories, it is because that they are continuously being supported that they stand as theories. In addition to fossils showing intermediate, many organisms have vestigial limbs and such hat is unused but once was (in an ancestor species). Wow I'll come back another time to finish this. But humans have been around for only 5000years. We have started to look into this only in the past couple hundred years. That's nothing in the geological timescale. Sorry, no evolution action you can see going on sad Besides, there has been no major catastrophical events triggering major changes to the species make-up... Sorry for the ginormous paragraph...
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:32 pm
@everlane: 5,000 years? There are archaeological remains of Native Americans dating back to 12,000 years ago. I think you've missed a couple zeros.
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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:20 pm
WOW. . . I missed a lot. Terribly sorry but i just started my first semester at college so I've been extremely busy. All right were to begin . . . ah first I find it rather humorous that when someone provided studied fact towards christianity they were attacked and ridiculed and yet most of those arguing for evolution have been simply stating what they believe and backing it with minimal facts. Second It is interesting that people got onto yuuki about pulling information from books. After all you obtained your information from text books, television shows, and other such places why shouldn't he be allowed to quote from an outside source.
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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:35 pm
Terrynvail Elastic Yellow I have a question. Didn't God "create everything," meaning he created Satan/Hell? Did he only create these for his own selfish wants of eternally damning non-believers? If this is true, it brings up the question doesn't God love everyone? Why would he WANT to eternally damn them??
When I look at this, all I can think is: "Christianity is full of hypocracy." :] God didn't create Satan and Hell for the sole purpose of damning us to it. He made Satan as an angel, and Satan (being an angel of beauty and high power) tried taking over God's throne in heaven by convincing 1/3 of the other angels that they could overthrow him and things would be better. As punishment, God made Hell and damned Satan to it. Eternal damnation for humans is punishment, not unfairly though, because we were created for worship. That doesn't mean he doesn't love us though. just because a father disciplines a child doesn't mean he doesn't love the child, right? I don't quite agree on all of your points. First, it is out of love that God gave humans freewill (you want to be a robot who can't think for yourself?) he wanted humans to be able to choose between him and sin. When you look at the idea of God you have to understand that he is more than just perfect love, he is also perfectly holiness, perfect power, ect. His holiness will not allow sin to come into his pressence, so like I said he made it were you could choose Him or sin (there is no sitting on the fence.) So that leads us ton Christ. Chist is God become flesh. He suffered through thing far worse than most people will ever have to go through, his death was terrible, bloody, and slow. How can you say a God how suffered through all of that for your sake is unloving. To finish I would like to state that if it was perfect on the earth why would we need to rely on God and what would we have to look forward to when we die. woot noodles.
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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:09 pm
Truith Terrynvail Elastic Yellow I have a question. Didn't God "create everything," meaning he created Satan/Hell? Did he only create these for his own selfish wants of eternally damning non-believers? If this is true, it brings up the question doesn't God love everyone? Why would he WANT to eternally damn them??
When I look at this, all I can think is: "Christianity is full of hypocracy." :] God didn't create Satan and Hell for the sole purpose of damning us to it. He made Satan as an angel, and Satan (being an angel of beauty and high power) tried taking over God's throne in heaven by convincing 1/3 of the other angels that they could overthrow him and things would be better. As punishment, God made Hell and damned Satan to it. Eternal damnation for humans is punishment, not unfairly though, because we were created for worship. That doesn't mean he doesn't love us though. just because a father disciplines a child doesn't mean he doesn't love the child, right? I don't quite agree on all of your points. First, it is out of love that God gave humans freewill (you want to be a robot who can't think for yourself?) he wanted humans to be able to choose between him and sin. When you look at the idea of God you have to understand that he is more than just perfect love, he is also perfectly holiness, perfect power, ect. His holiness will not allow sin to come into his pressence, so like I said he made it were you could choose Him or sin (there is no sitting on the fence.) So that leads us ton Christ. Chist is God become flesh. He suffered through thing far worse than most people will ever have to go through, his death was terrible, bloody, and slow. How can you say a God how suffered through all of that for your sake is unloving. To finish I would like to state that if it was perfect on the earth why would we need to rely on God and what would we have to look forward to when we die. woot noodles. Now here's a part I never really got.... So, Jesus is both the son of God, and God in human form (essentially)? That just doesn't make sense.
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