Why do you believe what you believe

[idiotic randomness]

R i o k u

dreams into nights yami

R i o k u

dreams into nights yami

R i o k u

dreams into nights yami

i dont beleive in a higher beings becuase if a higher being(aka. god) did create such a imperfect being as humans are god is not perfect

So, are you saying just because WE are imprefect, a higher being cannot exist?

kinda
if a higher being did create us in a higher beings image we would be less imperfect then we are

That is only applied when you believe the higher being DID create us in his image.

Do you know that is true for sure? You can't rule out the possibility that by however means we got here, a higher power could be the opposite of what we are. Or maybe we are half of what it is? Maybe our other half is incomplete? Maybe we have to find that other half here? Maybe there just IS no Higher Being? Maybe our image has nothing to do with how we got here? Maybe we are a form of aliens that came from a distant planet?

There are thousands of questions that will remain unanswered. You can answer one, but many more will sprout.

please correct me if i am wronge but does the bible say that god created man in his image?

Who says everyone listens to the bible? That really only applies if you're christian. It doesn't apply absolutely across all cultures just because you believe in it.

i never said i beleive in it i had to read it when i was a youngling  

[souloe]

hmmm, your argument sounds familier. A friend of mine told me the same thing. Dispelling logic and saying everything has a possibility to dodge all logic and scientific proof, at least, that's how I saw it. Still it is still rather interesting because you are, if you are, trying to convince me - thus logically - your point of view.

1. science and logic
If everything is possible and science is not related to logic, then science can not be trusted. Or, by your reasoning, it could be true and yet it could not be true, you can not rule out the possibility of all possibility. Gravity is not neccessarily for all matter and inertia may be true. Light may travel at light speed but it can also not. The doppler effect may be true and centripedal force may be true for some cases. Apples don't neccessarily have to fall towards the planet but maybe fly outwards with equal velocity. Cups on a table can possibily blow up and move in circles without intervention.

Why would I even dare say such illogical things? Simple. What is science? Science is the study of the physical world and phenomenas. For the scientific method you have to observe the thing whatever it may be. For science in general you need to observe something before saying that the phenomena is guided by this law. But! scientists have not proven that the gravitational force or its equation for all matter. They have proved it for matter on earth or perhaps in our galaxy, but not for the whole universe. Thus, by your logic, there is a possibility that gravity does not exist for matter. there may exist a place where apples fly into the air and not to the ground.

Do you get my point? We have not proved the cases true for every matter and everywhere that these laws of gravity or light or other things to be true. Thus, by your reasoning, it could be that they are not true. Just because we havn't found a rock that radiates infinite electrical energy on earth does not mean it does not exist. Science is observing the physical world and then using logic and math to deduce why/what. If the laws are not consistant then science is not accurate and can not be trusted. Yet since we have not proven that these laws are true for all the universe, you can, by your own reasoning, say that the reverse can be true.

And if otherwise can be true then science is not completely consistant and therefore can not be trusted. So by your reasoning of needing to prove something 100%, you are also saying science can not be trusted but only that it could be true and could be not true.

2. tried Christianity
hmmm, if you don't want to discuss the reason that's fine. But I just want to say, though it may be completely irrelovent, even if the people are bad, the God is not.

as for proving, there are more than just experiences that can prove God exist. Not that you would believe I think, even if I gave them to you. It does not seem like that logic and reasoning is what you are after - and do correct me if I am wrong. But rather, just projecting your belief that everything could be possible if it is not 100% proven. Which, I think, is a very good way to dodge everything that comes at you.

3. fear = bad?
lol, then you just contradicted your own statement. You said, in an earlier post, that what people fear they have defined to as sin. Obviously, sin is bad. Self contradiction?

4. why prove
Of course, its your free will so if you don't want to prove anything, you don't need to. Normally, if I have not mistaken, humans prove stuff to either convince themselves or convince others. In this case, if I was to want to convince you then I would need to prove it to you. But of course, that is not always enough. Yet regardless, if you were trying to convince me of anything, you would also need to prove it to me. Which, I'm almost sure you would say you are not convinceing me of anything and thus no need to prove anything.

5. Bible
You refused to prove it either way. But you made a statement that the things inside probably did not happen. Without logic and reasoning this discussion is useless in the first place in terms of convincing. Rather, merely a projection of one's own thought. I can tell you that there is more proof for the validity of the Bible and no proof for its invalidity. Thus with the comparison of proof I can refute your statement and say the opposite "it is probably true" Yet, of course, I do not think it would matter to you.  

[R i o k u]

If you want to get scientifical, then half the stuff in the bible cannot be true. Science proves that an entire civilization cannot be started by two people. Science proves that the animal species cannot be started by just two of the same animal. So...either science is wrong because those things actually did happen, or the bible is wrong because it could just never happen.

Who said fear is a bad thing? Who said sin is a bad thing? In catholicism, sex before marriage is a sin. I don't think it is bad, but it doesn't change the fact that some people see it as a sin. Masturbating is also a sin. Do I think that is bad? No, of course not. I don't know if you just assume we are all the same, but Sin and what is bad depends on your own personal views. People are going to think things are bad, or good, and you are going to disagree with them. Who is to say you are right and they are wrong? Who is to say they are right and you are wrong? A cult? A religion? That is just a group of people with different (or the same) opinions on the subject. I think abortion is wrong. Some people don't. The government sure doesn't think it is wrong, so it can't be a sin right? It has to be good if it is legal and supported. Thinking that way isn't thinking at all. It is letting other people do the thinking for you.

"Christianity says you need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. So do it. While you at it, accept _____ as your laws and _____ as your set of morals."

"Ok."

It doesn't always work like that, but most of the time it does.

Who says I simply dodge everything that coes at me? Just because I am skeptical that your religion is the right one, does not mean I simply don't believe in anything at all. That I live my life doubting, not always convinced of anything. So, because I have thought to some degree of logic that everything is possible, I dodge, 'everything' that comes at me? That is not true at all, but thanks for the assumption. Based on what I have said, clearly I live a shadowed life where nothing is true or proven. Because THAT logic is a smart one.

And as for you proving that God 100% exists, I would love nothing more than for you to tell me. You have nothing to lose, and if you do manage to prove he does exist, I am sure I would be extremely regretting that I have not seen God for myself. I might even be tempted to rethink my own beliefs, maybe even join christianity.

 

[MonkofMajere]

R i o k u

And as for you proving that God 100% exists, I would love nothing more than for you to tell me. You have nothing to lose, and if you do manage to prove he does exist, I am sure I would be extremely regretting that I have not seen God for myself. I might even be tempted to rethink my own beliefs, maybe even join christianity.

There isn't a way to prove God exhists. Thats where faith comes in.

Logically, though, there had to be some sort of higher being, because the universe couldn't have just appeared. Something beyond our capacity to imagine had to have been there to create it.  

[idiotic randomness]

Kovik

R i o k u

And as for you proving that God 100% exists, I would love nothing more than for you to tell me. You have nothing to lose, and if you do manage to prove he does exist, I am sure I would be extremely regretting that I have not seen God for myself. I might even be tempted to rethink my own beliefs, maybe even join christianity.

There isn't a way to prove God exhists. Thats where faith comes in.

Logically, though, there had to be some sort of higher being, because the universe couldn't have just appeared. Something beyond our capacity to imagine had to have been there to create it.

but then goes for a higher being something would have had to create it  

[Ayelah]

Thank you for that Kovic

Really, that is what I am been trying to get to this whole time. Faith is believing or even hopeing that something higher or better exists. People feel faith differently, which is why religion is so diverse.

Because there might or might not be something different, we don't have the knowledge to every know what it is.

You souloe, have been telling us the logic and truth to your religion. Someone of Islamic culture could do the exact same thing. Every organized religion on this planet could tell you why they are right, because to them, there is nothing to wonder. That is the problem with religion! Everyone thinks they are right! There are so many amazing religions in the world with awesome logic and morals. There is something out of every religion I know, that I agree with, that I think is right, that I question and that I learn from. It is because I don't belong to a set of codes that I can experience that. Because I can see 'out of the box'.

You seem to think that I am against religion. I am not. We succumb to religion because we were brought up in it, because we fear the unknown or any other reason. But I never said religion itsellf was wrong. Religion guides people and gives them hope. I would never say you should take it away. If people think they feel something else, they just might, no one else should be the judge of that.

And Christians of all people forget who we are! I told you I was raised christian, and I was. The core belief of that religion is to accept people for who they are. God made us, God loves us dearly, and he made each of us special and different because he cares for every one of us. And yet, we are being chastised because we want to use what he gave us in a different way? That is throwing out your BASIC MORAL PRINCIPLE! Ever hear the phrase "What Would Jesus Do?" Jesus wouldn't need to prove God exists, he wouldn't try to convince people their beliefs are wrong. He would accept us for who we are, and we would probably realize that what he says has truth. That is what Jesus would do.

Proving that one God exists is like telling half the world they are wrong. That what they have had faith in is rubbish. When people have the same faith as YOU do in YOUR religion? If I told you the bible wasn't true, you could tell me a thousand more reasons why it is. So could anyone else with their own religion. The same faith YOU feel THEY feel. They feel it is a different way.

Why?

Because we are different of course. Because every one of us is special, unique, and mysterious.

That's why.

 

[King Robert Silvermyst]

Not everything in the bible is genuine. Most of the old testement is actually taken from the ancient egyptian religion and modified. many stories were actually taken from the 'Hymn to Atum-Ra'. i will type out both and you will be able to see the similarities. Another thing you need to take into account is that many things are lost within translations of the bible when it was translated from hebrew to latin and then to other languages.

Bible: In the begining, God created the heaven and the earth.
Hymn: Splendid You rise in the heaven's light-land, ...when you have dawned in the eastern light-land

Bible: God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul
Hymn: To make them live you give the breath of life into thier noses

Bible: And God seperated the light from the darkness.
Hymn: As you dispel the dark

Bible: And God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth
Hymn: You Atum-Ra made all peoples, herds and flocks. All upon the earth that walk on legs, all on high that fly on wings.

Bible:So God scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth
Hymn: For you Atum-Ra distinguished your peoples.

Bible: And rain fell for fourty days and fourty nights.. And the waters prevailed so mightily upon the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered
Hymn: You (Atum-Ra)made a heavenly Hapy (rain) descend upon them. He (Atum-Ra) makes waves on the mountains like the sea.

Bible: Let there be lights (sun and moon) in the canopy of the heavens to divide the day from night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for the days, and the years
Hymn: Rising in the heavens formed as Atum-Ra (the sun), He makes the seasons and the months.

This next one is froma different wrting in egyptian texts that mirror the creation of the tree of knowledge which were written before the herbrews wrote thier creation story:

Bible: And the lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whhom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Texts: And Ra-Horus planted an enclosed grove in the eastern part of Eden; and there He pu tthe man whom the potter had made. And out of the red lands (Lower Egypt) Ra-Horus made to grow every tree which is pleasant for sight and good for food; the backbone (djed pillar or river Nile) of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There are many more that I can list, and if you wish me to do so I shall.

Another fact you might want to look at is God's name. Originally, the hebrew's God was named Elohim in the genesis story, yet later was changed to Jehova Elohim, which would indicate a different scribe was in charge of this new section to say the very least. Nextly the story of the creation of man. In the first chapter, god had created man and woman in His image, yet in chapter two, we find God is making man from the dust of the earth. The texts of the historian Josephus, who found intact some of the original hebrew scorlls and textx after his armies won a victory over a herbrew cultivated town, which William Whinston of much later down the line was translating, similarly supports the arguement for the change in the storyline. After the seventh day of the biblical 'creation' had finished, Josephus adds that:
Moreover, Moses, after the seventh day was over, begins to talk philosophically.
This indicates the scource of the genesis story was in fact Moses himself.  

[souloe]

@Rioku:

This topic is getting populated. Very interesting. I'll reply to you here first, don't have too much time to read/comment on the others yet. Irl is indeed busy.

1. Scientific
Just because you claim that science proves half the stuff can not be true does not mean that statement itself is true. Hence the topic of this thread. So since you made that claim, I would like to hear solid proof scientifically to support those claims. And we can continue from there once you have done so.

2. fear, sin, bad
essentially, it was you who said that fear turns into sin. You also said that raping is a sin. If you believe raping is not bad or that those statements that you made has no correlation then...okay.

As for who is to say who is right and wrong. Let me tell you what I think. If there is no God, then there is no right and wrong. Merely what is best for #1. If there is God however, and if He did create the universe adn everythign in it, then good and evil is most probably a standard based on Him. Course, now the question is: "Does God exist"

3. Christianity
Christianity says that God is a just and loving God. He created man and gave him free will so that he could choose to love Him and Him them in return. Yet free will entails the possibility for evil. When man chooses to do evil, God, being that He is just, must punish those that do evil. (If you want you can think the court punishing those who broke the law.) The punishment for sin is death. Now, if He killed us all, then we'd ask, "I thought He was a loving God?" Yes, He is a loving God. But He is also a just God. The debt must be paid. And He gave up His only begotten son to pay it for us, to die for us, to die on a cross.

Now you may think that's whatever. But if you've studied ancient Rome and the crucifixion, you would think otherwise. Think about it this way. If you had a kin that did something wrong and was sentenced to death, would you choose to die in their place? If that death meant that you would be beaten till your skin ripped to the point where you can see the white bones in you, spat on and mocked by an entire city, would you choose to die in their place? Now suppose there was more. Suppose you have to carry a cross on your battered back and walk all the way to outside a city to be hung naked to die with nails driven into your wrists and feet, hung up for all to see, if you have not given up the notion already, would you still keep going? Now realize this, on a cross it is hard to breath because of the positioning and the design. So to breath, you have to push your naked body upwards to gasp for air. Yet if you do, you would agrivate the nails in your wrist and legs pushing your body's force against it. You would suffocate to death or bleed to death over extended amounts of time. Would you be willing to die a death like that? To take their place so that they may have a chance at life?

Now, that was only a fraction of what Christ did for us. Suppose, for a moment, we assume that he is who the Bible says He is - the son of God who came and died for us - then what would it entail? It would mean that he chose, willingly, to degrade himself from an all powerful God to a child who can't even feed himself. In human terms, perhaps think of a king degrading himself to a begger. He lived his entire life knowing that His purpose in life is to die a horrific death. A God, spat on and mocked by the men He created. Can you imagine the humiliation? With the power to control the seas and the storm you now have to endure spits, mockery and beating from humans. And it isn't that you don't have the power to crush them all. Yet He endured it. He endured the cross and then him who hated sin, took on the sin of the world. Not only that, but His father turned His face away. Imagine, the person whom you love, being with for all eternity and always loved each other, now turns His face from you, how would you feel? Would you be willing to endure all that so that someone else can have a chance at life? Would you still do that knowing that there is a chance that you will never be thanked and that they will reject you, spit at you and call you stupid after your death?

Now if indeed there is a God willing to put up with all that for our sake, because of love, then what do you think we should do? If someone endured all that so you can have a chance at life, what would you do? Reject him, spit on him and call him stupid?

The crux of Christianity is about love. It is about how a loving God wnats to have a relationship with us. And of course, as with every relationship there will be ups and downs, joys and sadness, even misunderstandings, but if He was willing to go through that kind of death, does that not mean he has the heart to want to rebuild a relationship with you? What do you think?

4. Proving God exist
I will use an argument is based on logic and our universe. I do hope that you do not mind. I will prove it using the universe itself and four premise. The universe, of course, is all time, all space, all matter, all light, and all energy and essentially, all the physical worlds. Our universe.

Quote:

This universe can either a) be infinite or b) not infinite.

If the universe is infinite then by definition there is an infinite amount of time before today and an infinite amount of time after today. If there is an infinite amount of time before today then, becuase time flows forward, this universe must pass through that infinite amount of time to reach today. And by logic, this universe can not pass through an infinite amount of time to reach today, by the definition of infinite. Thus, either the universe is infinite and we have not reached today or the universe is not infinite and we have reached today. Therefore, since we have reached today, the universe must not be infinite.

If the universe is not infinite then it must have had a beginning. This beginning could either have a) a cause or b) no cause.

If lets assume that the beginning has no cause for its beginning, what are we saying? We are saying that from nothing came something. There was neither any reason nor laws that guided that coming into being. Is that logical? I most certainly hope not, science and logic both states otherwise. Therefore, if the beginning is not of b) no cause then it must be a) a cause.

If the beginning of the universe has a cause then regardless of the cause that cause must be a sufficient cause. That sufficient cause can either a) always have been or b) not always have been.

If that cause always have been then the universe always have been because there is no time gap between cause and effect. You can try striking a match against a proper surface, it ignites immediately, no time gap. But since we have already proved that the universe can not be infinite then the sufficient caues must not always have been.

If the sufficient cause was not always have been then there must have been a change to make that sufficient cause. That change can either be a) random or b) not random.

What is random? Random, by definition, is probability of anything happening over time. Yet time is a part of this universe. Without time can you have random? Flip a coin and stop time while it is in midair, would it have any random? No, it would just stay in the air. Thus without time there is no random. Since this change for the sufficient cause is what caused the universe it must be outside the universe. And since it is outside the universe there must not have time and therefore can not possibily have random. If this change for the sufficient cause is not a) random then it must be b) not random.

And if the change for the sufficient cause is not random then it must be deliberately willed. And if it is deliberately willed then what do you call the thing/being that willed the universe into existance? By our logic, we have ruled out all other possibility by saying either X or not X. Therefore, QED.

Now, proving is one thing, believing is another. Just because I can prove it, if you would belive I would be happy. Yet I have seen that people, if they don't want to believe, will find everyway possible not to believe. I have seen that too much lately so if indeed this is the case I would not be surprised. It is, as I have said many times already, your free will. I will not and can not force you.  

[Cornelius loh Quatious]

Just to tag on a bit to that last point, I must disagree with you, souloe. To prove something beyond denial means that people cannot reject it based on reason or logic. You'd be hard pressed denying gravity exists, even if it isn't a scientific law, because it shows itself to be true everywhere we turn, undeniably so. When things *do* deny this (ie, Kriss Angel or David Blaine), we reject those instead, knowing it to be an illusion. Proving the existence of a deity, on the other hand, doesn't have the kind of visible or physical evidence that gravity has. Science tells us that we cannot walk on water, that we cannot turn water into wine, that we cannot heal people with a touch, hence the term "miracle." Yet we don't go out and call Blaine or Angel miracle-workers, nor any of the other illusionists or magicians that we see, mostly because they do not claim to be them.

If someone did start performing things that denied our logic and science, and claimed to be a miracle worker, how many would believe him? Would you? It is said that any highly enough advanced science can be labeled as magic, but does that make it any less of a miracle? Of course, I suppose none of this really matters in discussing the existence of a deity, but I suppose it's food for thought. This little bit took much longer than I expected, sorry about that.  

[Jebus87]

i dont believe in 'god' i belive that there are god's(plural)
and they dont do favours and thigs like that, instead they play games.
with the fate of singular and groups of people, like wars and other things.

oh and if u think i have stole this from a book, i have because it makes alot of sense, terry prachetts discworld rules  

[R i o k u]

Where did I say that everything sciences says is true? Or half of it anyways? Where did you get that?

What I said is I believe raping is a sin. Others don't. Our own set of morals tell us what is right and wrong. In your case, your religion tells you what is right or wrong. In my case, I choose for myself. Which is why I will say, for what seems like the 10th time, what we believe is right and wrong depends entirely on the person.

What do I think? Not much, to tell you the truth. If I actually believed that Jesus was the son of God who doed for our sins, I would be christian, am I right? But I don't. It is a nice story, and you milked it to what seems like a heroic end, but it isn't my cup of tea. Now, this isn't to say it never did happen, I accept that Jesus was a historical figure and actually existed. But everything else? No thanks.

What you said makes sense. Proof? Not really. A good bit of what should logically happen in a case like so, but not concrete proof. I will say that. But where in there does it say "The christian god is the one who did it all?" No where that I can see. That is where faith comes in and that is where belief comes in. I could tell you "I am a Hindu, and of course, the Hindu God's created the universe." And there would be nothing you could do to prove me wrong. We don't know how many Gods there are, we don't know their names, we don't know anything about them. Or it. Do I think there is a higher being? Yes, not because anyone proved to me anything, but just because it makes sense to me. Do I believe it is the christian God? No.

@ dboyzero - On the contrairy, I enjoyed that little bit. You brought up some good points. How is it we think that David Blane is just hoaxing us, and yet a statue that drinks milk is a divine miracle of God? Because DIFFERENT people have DIFFERENT perspectives and DIFFERENT opinions.

 

[souloe]

((@dboyzero: don't worry about it. we do have a life outside of gaia and some of these discussion stuff can get quite long. Take your time.))

1. ruling out other possibility
when I made that statement I meant within the argument. With every premise, we have either X or not X - where x is the choices - and thus the only possibility is one of the two. It is, or it is not. And with every premise we have ruled out one - through logic and science - thus left with the other until we came to the conclusion that this universe is willed into being. With that said, we have ruled out all otherwise possibility for each premise and finally come to a conclusion.

2. not believing all of science
Ah, very interesting. If say, you do not believe everything science says is true, then you can not say that the stuff in the Bible is unscientific in a sense. Using science to say the Bible false is essentially saying that science is truth and using it to compare the Bible. Yet if you can't even trust science, then using it to support your claims is a simple waste of time. Thus if you say you don't believe all science is true, then logically, you using science to support your claims would be rather...ironic and a waste of time.

3. moral
yes, you have claimed your statement many atimes. But until you actually support it with evidence or, if we use your way of thinking, prove it 100% you can not say it is 100% true.

4. Jesus Christ
Now, perhaps that was not your intention but if you meant to say that I fabricated his life, I will take it as an insult. There are many things I can tolerate, but this is not one of them. He is my GOD. If I did fabricate anything I would be disrespecting and insulting my God. Not only have a falsely testified for Him but I would have deliberately disobeyed His direct command. I revere my God and I will tell of His truth, I refuse to tell of lies. And if you say that I fabricated my Lord's life, I will be highly insulted.

5. God
Did I claim that this single logical deduction would prove that the Christian God is the God? I do not believe I have said that. Rather I have said that this can prove God exist. And essentially, I have. If this universe is willed into being then, by definition, what do you call the thing/being/mind that did the action?

6. Science
If you really think about it, you'd realize that science does not refute the existance of God. Inertia says that moving bodies will keep moving. But we know that if you let a ball roll, it will eventually stop. Does it mean science is wrong? No, but rather there is another factor called friction. Now, can water normally turn into wine? Of course not. But if there was another factor - namely God in this case - can it happen? Yes it can. Does science prove that God can not exist? No it doesn't. You could always try to prove me otherwise of course. So if indeed there is a God, then those things are not impossible.

7. proof
and what makes the logical deduction not concrete I might ask?

8. Proving the Christian God is the true God
I have already proven, by logical deduction - unless you could prove otherwise, that this universe is willed into existance. Now to prove that it is, in your words, "the Christian God" I only need to prove that Jesus Christ Is the son of God and that the Bible is credible. Would you like to hear it? I do not claim to know everything about it but I'll do what I can. Perhaps its easier if dboyzero criticize the Bible and its credibility and then I give comments. Sinec you said you refuse to prove the Bible wrong and since dboyzero has proven to me that he is either quite a thinker or have been taught quite well.

R i o k u

Where did I say that everything sciences says is true? Or half of it anyways? Where did you get that?

What I said is I believe raping is a sin. Others don't. Our own set of morals tell us what is right and wrong. In your case, your religion tells you what is right or wrong. In my case, I choose for myself. Which is why I will say, for what seems like the 10th time, what we believe is right and wrong depends entirely on the person.

What do I think? Not much, to tell you the truth. If I actually believed that Jesus was the son of God who doed for our sins, I would be christian, am I right? But I don't. It is a nice story, and you milked it to what seems like a heroic end, but it isn't my cup of tea. Now, this isn't to say it never did happen, I accept that Jesus was a historical figure and actually existed. But everything else? No thanks.

What you said makes sense. Proof? Not really. A good bit of what should logically happen in a case like so, but not concrete proof. I will say that. But where in there does it say "The christian god is the one who did it all?" No where that I can see. That is where faith comes in and that is where belief comes in. I could tell you "I am a Hindu, and of course, the Hindu God's created the universe." And there would be nothing you could do to prove me wrong. We don't know how many Gods there are, we don't know their names, we don't know anything about them. Or it. Do I think there is a higher being? Yes, not because anyone proved to me anything, but just because it makes sense to me. Do I believe it is the christian God? No.

@ dboyzero - On the contrairy, I enjoyed that little bit. You brought up some good points. How is it we think that David Blane is just hoaxing us, and yet a statue that drinks milk is a divine miracle of God? Because DIFFERENT people have DIFFERENT perspectives and DIFFERENT opinions.

 

[souloe]

dreams into nights yami

Kovik

R i o k u

And as for you proving that God 100% exists, I would love nothing more than for you to tell me. You have nothing to lose, and if you do manage to prove he does exist, I am sure I would be extremely regretting that I have not seen God for myself. I might even be tempted to rethink my own beliefs, maybe even join christianity.

There isn't a way to prove God exhists. Thats where faith comes in.

Logically, though, there had to be some sort of higher being, because the universe couldn't have just appeared. Something beyond our capacity to imagine had to have been there to create it.

but then goes for a higher being something would have had to create it

only if that higher being had a beginning. If that being was infinite then they logically do not need a creator of their own  

[souloe]

lol, I didn't realize that it was you in another account until I actually looked carefully razz

1. telling logic and truth to my religion
Yes, if others can do the same then by all means, please do. Why? Becuase that is the purpose of this topic. "Why do you believe what you believe?" Hence, sorry if I am slow but, what is wrong with posting the logic behind Christianity? Its not like I'm forcing you to believe, though... I can and do say I am trying to persuade you to do so. You can always try to prove me wrong, in fact, I encourage it. That is this thread's purpose if I have not mistaken.

2. against religion
hmmm, actually, I think you are against Christianity but... if you say you are not then that's fine.

3. chastised?
you are free to rape innocent little girls (not personal of course since you are using a girl account). You have the ability to do so. But if you are caught, will the court say "oh, its your freedom, go ahead". If they did, you would start wondering where that english term went... what was it again? oh yes, Justice.

4. what would Jesus do
perhaps my knowledge in the Bible is frail comparing to yours but from my knowledge Jesus did not prove God exist. He told people about how God is like. He didn't convince people their believes are wrong, He told them blatantly that they are wrong. And He does accept us for who we are. Think about it this way, if you did something wrong, your parents would still love you for who you are but they will definately not love what you did. They will even punish you to help you correct. Jesus accepts us for who we are but don't get that confused by adding that "He accepts everything we do" into it. As well we don't neccessarily have to accept His teachings just like a child might not see why playing with a knife is bad and refused to believe their parents until they experienced the pain. What's free will? The ability to choose.

5. Proving one God exists.
Yes, very simply put, I am saying more than half the world is wrong. That is my belief. Ask the Muslims and they will say all Hindus are wrong. Ask those who practice original Buddism adn they will say there is no god thus all religions who has god in it is wrong. Am I being rash, stupid and close minded? If I can not support my claims and the validity of Christianity, then yes. But since I have demonstrated that I can support my claims i have also demonstrated that ti is not blind faith, irrationality or illogical belief.

If anyone else could prove their religion true with the same amount of evidence and logic as those that support Christianity, I welcome them to prove it here. In fact, I challenge them to prove it here.

6. faith
As well, there's something rather interesting that you might not have thought of. By me posting that I believe that more than half the world is wrong, i have essentially drawn a bull's eye on myself for all to attack. By saying that I believe God is the absolute truth I have made that bull's eye even bigger. A single proof of refutation of God would mean that I am wrong and crash down all my beliefs. Yet, why would I expose myself be attacked by possibly more than half the world? Either I am extremely stupid, over confident or am taking a leap of faith. Like I said before, i don't know everything about the Bible or all the proofs that supports it. I don't have all the answers. So theoretically, I shouldn't have confidence in my own knowledge simply becaues it does not have everything, yet I still posted what I did. You may take it as something else, but I personally take this as a step of faith. If indeed my God is true, then there is no way you can refute Him, not a single evidence/proof to do so. Let the Lord my God be my strength and my shield. In him I trust and when I am helped with my voice I give Him praise.

7. same faith
If you are to make that statement, you must first show me that they have an equivilant amount of logic and support for their faith. Otherwise, the comparison is invalid. I believe by faith, yes. But I am also able to back this faith with logic and proofs. If they can do so, with all due respect, please, invite them to this topic and let them do so. This is, afterall, the thread that says "why do you believe what you believe"

Rioku Avalon

Thank you for that Kovic

Really, that is what I am been trying to get to this whole time. Faith is believing or even hopeing that something higher or better exists. People feel faith differently, which is why religion is so diverse.

Because there might or might not be something different, we don't have the knowledge to every know what it is.

You souloe, have been telling us the logic and truth to your religion. Someone of Islamic culture could do the exact same thing. Every organized religion on this planet could tell you why they are right, because to them, there is nothing to wonder. That is the problem with religion! Everyone thinks they are right! There are so many amazing religions in the world with awesome logic and morals. There is something out of every religion I know, that I agree with, that I think is right, that I question and that I learn from. It is because I don't belong to a set of codes that I can experience that. Because I can see 'out of the box'.

You seem to think that I am against religion. I am not. We succumb to religion because we were brought up in it, because we fear the unknown or any other reason. But I never said religion itsellf was wrong. Religion guides people and gives them hope. I would never say you should take it away. If people think they feel something else, they just might, no one else should be the judge of that.

And Christians of all people forget who we are! I told you I was raised christian, and I was. The core belief of that religion is to accept people for who they are. God made us, God loves us dearly, and he made each of us special and different because he cares for every one of us. And yet, we are being chastised because we want to use what he gave us in a different way? That is throwing out your BASIC MORAL PRINCIPLE! Ever hear the phrase "What Would Jesus Do?" Jesus wouldn't need to prove God exists, he wouldn't try to convince people their beliefs are wrong. He would accept us for who we are, and we would probably realize that what he says has truth. That is what Jesus would do.

Proving that one God exists is like telling half the world they are wrong. That what they have had faith in is rubbish. When people have the same faith as YOU do in YOUR religion? If I told you the bible wasn't true, you could tell me a thousand more reasons why it is. So could anyone else with their own religion. The same faith YOU feel THEY feel. They feel it is a different way.

Why?

Because we are different of course. Because every one of us is special, unique, and mysterious.

That's why.

 

[souloe]

interesting things you've brought up.

1. proving egyptian hymn
sorry, guess its just a bad habit. If you make a statement, would you please give support of its validity as well? thanks

2. bible not genuine
Have you ever thought about the possibility that they could originate from the same source rather than a copy? If it was common knowledge that God created man and the likes then wouldn't the similarity also make sense?

If you like, go search this up. I remember I once heard that there are many stories around the world talking about a big flood that overwhelmed all except those that were spared - by ship, box or whatever. i think that if you can find them, it would prove interesting.

King Robert Silvermyst

Not everything in the bible is genuine. Most of the old testement is actually taken from the ancient egyptian religion and modified. many stories were actually taken from the 'Hymn to Atum-Ra'. i will type out both and you will be able to see the similarities. Another thing you need to take into account is that many things are lost within translations of the bible when it was translated from hebrew to latin and then to other languages.

Bible: In the begining, God created the heaven and the earth.
Hymn: Splendid You rise in the heaven's light-land, ...when you have dawned in the eastern light-land

Bible: God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul
Hymn: To make them live you give the breath of life into thier noses

Bible: And God seperated the light from the darkness.
Hymn: As you dispel the dark

Bible: And God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth
Hymn: You Atum-Ra made all peoples, herds and flocks. All upon the earth that walk on legs, all on high that fly on wings.

Bible:So God scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth
Hymn: For you Atum-Ra distinguished your peoples.

Bible: And rain fell for fourty days and fourty nights.. And the waters prevailed so mightily upon the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered
Hymn: You (Atum-Ra)made a heavenly Hapy (rain) descend upon them. He (Atum-Ra) makes waves on the mountains like the sea.

Bible: Let there be lights (sun and moon) in the canopy of the heavens to divide the day from night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for the days, and the years
Hymn: Rising in the heavens formed as Atum-Ra (the sun), He makes the seasons and the months.

This next one is froma different wrting in egyptian texts that mirror the creation of the tree of knowledge which were written before the herbrews wrote thier creation story:

Bible: And the lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whhom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Texts: And Ra-Horus planted an enclosed grove in the eastern part of Eden; and there He pu tthe man whom the potter had made. And out of the red lands (Lower Egypt) Ra-Horus made to grow every tree which is pleasant for sight and good for food; the backbone (djed pillar or river Nile) of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There are many more that I can list, and if you wish me to do so I shall.

Another fact you might want to look at is God's name. Originally, the hebrew's God was named Elohim in the genesis story, yet later was changed to Jehova Elohim, which would indicate a different scribe was in charge of this new section to say the very least. Nextly the story of the creation of man. In the first chapter, god had created man and woman in His image, yet in chapter two, we find God is making man from the dust of the earth. The texts of the historian Josephus, who found intact some of the original hebrew scorlls and textx after his armies won a victory over a herbrew cultivated town, which William Whinston of much later down the line was translating, similarly supports the arguement for the change in the storyline. After the seventh day of the biblical 'creation' had finished, Josephus adds that:
Moreover, Moses, after the seventh day was over, begins to talk philosophically.
This indicates the scource of the genesis story was in fact Moses himself.